Love as a Mentor Strategy

EPISODE 17

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In this episode, we try to get you to think differently about a simple concept. What makes a good mentor? What role should mentorship play in our lives? What’s the right way to mentor someone, or to be mentored? We dive into all of these things, and share about the role that LOVE plays in all of it.

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Feel the love! We aren't experts - we're practitioners. With a passion that's a mix of equal parts strategy and love, we explore the human (and fun) side of work and business every week together.

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Jeff Ma
Director

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ashley.vega.square

Ashley Vega
Associate Director

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MohProfile

Mohammad Anwar
President

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maggie.mcclurkin.square

Maggie McClurkin
Producer

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Transcript

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Jeff Ma
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. I'm a director at Softway, an agency based out of Houston, Texas that specializes in digital transformation, culture, and branding. In each episode, we'd like to dive into one element of business or strategy and test our theory of love against it. Today's topic is going to be mentorship. And I'll be honest, this topic caught me a little off guard. In prepping for this episode, I realized that I personally don't really give enough thought to mentorship, the mentors and mentees in my life, they're not part of my regular thought process. And I could be missing out on some real opportunities here. And so I decided to invite a wide range of perspectives to help me talk through this today. And I started with someone who I consider a close personal mentor, and that is president and CEO of Softway Mohammad Anwar. Hello, Moh.

Mohammad Anwar
Hey, Jeff.

Jeff Ma
And I'd like to welcome a first timer to the show, an associate director and Market Development Manager at Softway, a very good friend of mine as well. Miss Ashley Vega. Hey, Ashley.

Ashley Vega
Hello.

Jeff Ma
And I love every episode that I get to do with her, a familiar face our producer executive producer is what we call her lovingly, and a project manager at Softway. Miss Maggie McClurkin. Welcome back, Maggie.

Maggie McClurkin
Thank you. Hello.

Jeff Ma
So you guys know the drill icebreakers first, and I will jump at Moh right away because I know how nervous he gets about these. So Moh, would you rather live where it only snows or the temperature never falls below 100 degrees?

Mohammad Anwar
Say that again?

Jeff Ma
Would you rather live someone really cold or somewhere really hot?

Mohammad Anwar
I would prefer to live somewhere where it's hot, not cold. I would not be able to survive in the wintertime. I was born in the desert. The Arabian desert. And I have since loved warm weather.

Jeff Ma
What do you keep your thermostat at home?

Mohammad Anwar
73 degrees

Jeff Ma
73 Fahrenheit? That's cool. That's actually very cool. Okay.

Ashley Vega
I veto that. I'll live on the other side of the world from you, Mohammad.

Mohammad Anwar
Really? Okay.

Ashley Vega
I feel like you can always put more layers on and there's only so many you can take off.

Jeff Ma
In Ashley's world, one half of it is hot and the other half is cold.

Ashley Vega
That's correct, yes.

Jeff Ma
I don't know why she has to go on the other side of the world to get that but

Mohammad Anwar
She meant the other side of the Arabian Desert, I think..

Jeff Ma
Got it.

Ashley Vega
Yeah, something like that. Sure.

Jeff Ma
Ashley, your turn. If, if you could change places with anyone in the world, who would it be? And why?

Ashley Vega
change places like body swap or like, physical location? What are we talking about here?

Jeff Ma
Oh, a question for a question. You. We already know he won't be Mohammad because he'll be in a hot place. But yeah, let's just say let's just say body swap or you know, take over their life. I don't know.

Maggie McClurkin
Freaky Friday.

Ashley Vega
Freaky Friday. Top of my head, I feel like I want to go be the queen. I want to know what that's like. And just there's there's so many things. I watch the crown. Big fan. Yeah, the queen of England.

Jeff Ma
That's a good one. Nice.

Maggie McClurkin
That's a good one.

Ashley Vega
Even though she's kind of old, but it's okay. I'm gonna say temporary swap. Right?

Jeff Ma
Well, assume you can swap back anytime. Maggie, what fictional world or place? Would you like to visit?

Maggie McClurkin
Easy Hogwarts.

Ashley Vega
Yes.

Jeff Ma
And that's that. Y'all, that's it. That's the whole show.

Maggie McClurkin
I got nothing else to say.

Jeff Ma
So I brought you three together for a very strategic kind of with a very strategic kind of mindset and bear with me here. So Mohammad, obviously, your CEO, President of Softway and a mentor to many in my mind. I know to me, but I treat you as kind of like this mentor figure for a lot of people. And I know one of those people is Ashley. And I know Ashley, as someone that I also consider as like this. She's a daisy chain of mentorship downwards for many other people, many other people look up to Ashley as a great and important mentor. And one of those people when she started her career here was Maggie. And so I thought it'd be interesting to bring this kind of this kind of Russian nesting doll of mentorship together here today, but I think, um, you know, when we start diving into this, I think there's more to it than first meets the eye, right? It's not just this one to one kind of relationship. And that's what I really want to talk about today. And Ashley, I want to start with you as the guest here. I want to know like, What does mentorship, just that simple term, what does that mean to you?

Ashley Vega
So, I want you to know that I hadn't even thought of myself as like a quote unquote mentor until Maggie was like, hey, Ashley, do you want to come on this podcast? It's like, oh, oh, okay. So I started thinking about that a lot. Like, what what is mentorship to me? Like, what does that look like? And I think that what it comes down to, for me is, like, it's an investment of your time and other individuals, people that you care about that you want to see them grow and succeed, and whatever it is they're doing. And I'm a manager of people, right? So I manage a lot of people. But just because I manage people doesn't mean you can be a mentor to all of those people, it doesn't mean that even you have to be a mentor to only the people you manage. So I've got all kinds of people that I keep in connection with, and I make sure that I, you know, take time to meet with them, find out what's going on in their lives, etc. At work, professional, personal, whatever it is, but I think it's just that investment of time from somebody. Like that's what mentorship is to me.

Jeff Ma
Maggie, I guess you you singled out Ashley pretty quickly there? Like what was your mindset in reaching out to her?

Maggie McClurkin
Well, the first thing that came to mind was the fact that she trained me. But then like, like my first month here, she trained me and taught me how to be a project manager. But it was really more than that, the more that I thought about it. It's not just about her teaching me how to be a project manager, it was the fact that I felt like, at any point, no matter like Ashley said, if she was, if I was under her direct leadership or not, besides whatever project I was on, I felt very comfortable going to her and being like Ashley, like, I don't know what to do. What would you do? Can you help me talk? Can you help talk me through this situation? And not only would she answer my questions, but she always made me feel like I was not bothering her with those questions. Which is a big difference. It feels like a small thing. But when you go to someone, and they're just constantly like, Oh, I'm really busy, but I'll try and help you. That doesn't really, you know, help. But every time I would go to Ashley, even though I know she's one of the busiest people here in the company, she would be like, yeah, sure, let me clear my calendar for you. She's done that several times for me. Let me clear a few things off my calendar. And let me help you figure this out. Because this is really, really big for you. And I want to help you through it. And those moments are ones I won't forget. And ones that I I think really tell a lot about the kind of mentor that she is. So that's why.

Ashley Vega
Thanks, Maggie.

Jeff Ma
A lot of warm fuzzy feelings here.

Ashley Vega
Social distance hugs coming around

Maggie McClurkin
Air hugs.

Jeff Ma
Mohammad, what's, you know, I obviously strategically placed you at like the top of this pyramid, but giving your your perspective. I mean, do you consider yourself a mentor?

Mohammad Anwar
To be very honest, I never think of myself as a mentor. I think it's it has to be very organic. I think it comes organically. And you know, I know there are a lot of formal programs that could exist out there for mentorship and stuff, but I've never really taken that approach to mentorship here at Softway for me personally or for our teams. I think it's best when it's organically delivered through genuine relationships and care and wanting to put the needs of others before yourself. And then you automatically are mentoring every possible moment. And you know, you don't even think that you're mentoring but you are and that's the best form of mentorship in my mind. So, you know, professionally, we don't have a formal mentorship program inside of our company. But we do seek mentorship and or have mentees seeking, you know, mentors and it's just happens organically through relationships because of the culture of love and support that we have built at Softway.

Jeff Ma
I find that really interesting. I mean, I I've already said very clearly that I consider you a mentor of mine. I guess we've I've never said it to your face. Really? I guess not in those words. But I definitely definitely do. And there's no question in my mind about I'm curious. Do Ashley Maggie Do you guys also see Mohammad as a mentor in your lives?

Ashley Vega
Absolutely.

Maggie McClurkin
Absolutely. Yeah.

Ashley Vega
I'm like texting Mohammad, like, Hey, what do you think about this just randomly, that's Mohammad, you're always accessible. I really appreciate that as well as a mentor.

Mohammad Anwar
And the thing is Jeff, I want to I want to bring up this other dynamic is like, you all are my mentor too. I learn from you guys every day. And that's something that I think it's important to note is that mentorship is not a one way it is a two way street. You, if you you know, even from a seniority or experience level or hierarchical level, you might have a higher level. It doesn't matter. If you are genuinely going through this motions of mentorship, you are getting mentored just as much as you are mentoring. And having that attitude and mindset helps you keep growing. Because you, you can never learn, not learn enough and not grow enough. And from my standpoint, being a CEO of the company, I actually look forward to learning all the time from everyone in the company, everyone has something to offer and something to teach me, they may not realize that I'm learning in the process, but that's how I get my mentorship. That's how I, I consider myself a mentee to everyone at Softway.

Jeff Ma
I, a moment of vulnerability here for me is that, you know, I was kind of placed in leadership positions in management positions, you know, for a while I've been there. And it's kind of this understood, job title role, like thing that I'm supposed to play, that's a mentor to others. And so here I am trying to very actively at times be that for other people, because that's what's expected of me. And I mean, Maggie kind of struck a chord with me earlier, where she was like, Oh, you know, Ashley always made time for me, and she doesn't say she's too busy. And I feel like I did that to Maggie. Like, even when I was supposed to be one of our mentors, you know, and, and so and I, I kind of add, I kind of had like a leading question for you there. For everyone there when I said, Does anyone consider Mohammad a mentor? Because I know for a fact that many, many people in this organization consider Mohammad a mentor. And it's like this one to one relationship, mentorship, I don't know how you do it across so many different people, because I struggle with even gaining like one at a time under like, quote, unquote, my mentorship. And so there's this, there's this strange conflict I'm having, emotionally here where it's like, you know, you can try so hard. There's something that there's a secret ingredient here that's missing. For me, at least, Ashley, actually want to ask you, because you're the first name that popped in my mind, we wanted to do a show on mentorship. And it's because I've, I've watched you for so long, and the way that you you help people and guide people close to you and and not just how you act, but how people speak of you, when they need help and the safety and the confidence they have in coming to you. Can you help me understand? Is there like a right way to mentor and a wrong way to mentor like, how do you do it? What's your secret?

Ashley Vega
Well, I, you know, I have a lot of people in my life that work in these like corporate companies where they're assigned a mentor, you are a mentee of this individual. And Mohammad said, we don't have a program like that here. And, and I love that because that means that I can go off and mentor anybody if I wanted to, which again, I don't think of it that way. But like, oh, let me go help support this one. Let me let me go help support this individual. So I was thinking about Maggie and I specifically and I can like remember the moment that her and I, like clicked as mentor mentee. And it was we were having lunch, we were talking about a project. And I had shared a personal story about something I was going through at the time, I don't even remember what it was, but something pretty vulnerable. And that led her to share, like an even more vulnerable story. And I was like, oh, like, Okay, here we are, here we go. We can talk about anything now. personal work, whatever it is, like it's all on the table. That's the kind of relationship we have. And that like, like that was it. And I think that trust and that vulnerability that her and I built just from having that one conversation, it just kind of opened the door for any and all because I think it's really an old mindset to say work is work and home is home. Because there's so many overlaps. There's so many things that, like I can get mentally blocked at work because of maybe an argument I had with my spouse, maybe like there's a leak in the bathroom that's causing me a lot of stress, like, I don't know, but whatever I bring to work is infused with my home. And I think it's important that as a leader, and as a mentor you you're able to acknowledge and bring forth that and have a space for those individuals to talk through and work through some of that stuff, even if it has nothing to do with your project or whatever it is you're working on.

Maggie McClurkin
And I remember that very specifically too, Ashley, that lunch that we had and and I appreciated you being vulnerable first. Because as someone who was newer to the company, I didn't know like how people reacted to like telling personal or vulnerable stories yet like I was still figuring that out like the dynamic of of teams here. So you opening up gave me like the green light to also open up, and then it just kind of made our relationship stronger. So I think that was really key for us. Is you taking that first step.

Mohammad Anwar
I think the answer there is trust is incredibly important for a really good mentor mentee relationship. And most of the time, it needs to start, start with the mentor, being vulnerable and helping build that kind of trust. Because for a mentee to get the most value from mentorship, they have to be able to confide their weaknesses or situations and problems and speak very openly, without the fear of being judged, or assume that you don't know what you're talking about. And you have to have an incredible high level of trust with your mentor. And that's why organically building mentor mentee relationships is, is probably more valuable than saying thou shalt be your mentor. And even if you have that relationship, or not that's your mentor, and you need to learn from them, is not always feasible. And I think organically having those relationships build through trust, and genuine empathy and care for each other makes it a best environment for mentorship.

Ashley Vega
Mohammad, I think the other piece, like even a layer deeper than that is like, like, I'm not perfect, and the fact that we have a relationship of trust, like Maggie I, I'm going to do my best to give you all the advice that I have with the information I have. But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to guide you wrong or make a mistake. And I think that that's important to note too, that we're all humans. And we're bringing to the table the best intent for the situation or whatever it is. And then it's up to the mentee to kind of digest that information and take it and apply it with whatever perspective and you know, whatever the actual situation needs.

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah, yeah, I would say when a mentor comes with this attitude that I am the mentor, I am above you, I am greater than you and the ego comes in the way.

Ashley Vega
I'm big you're small.

Mohammad Anwar
Exactly, that's when you lose the value of mentorship. I mean, it might get you so far, but it's really not a healthy environment. If mentors are labeled as mentors, and they feel superior or have this ego about themselves, then that's the wrong way to even begin mentoring. So I agree with you, you have to start from a place of humility and be able to be vulnerable and say, you know, I don't know it all. But let me try to help you.

Maggie McClurkin
And I would say the most valuable teaching moments I've had with Ashley were not when I came to her and said, I have no clue what to do, tell me what to do. They were times when I said this is where I'm leaning towards this is kind of what I'm thinking, can you talk me through it? Can you help me externally process this with someone who's been there before? Because that then one, like, I'm kind of figuring it out alongside her. But also two, I learn a lot better because I was a part of the decision making process. And not just told this is how it's done. This is what you should do.

Unknown Speaker
And I think that plays into the like the difference between training and mentoring, like training like, Yes, go schedule that do this talk to this person. This is how you need to handle it, but like mentoring is, well, have you thought through, you know, X, Y, and Z? And I'm sure we have an example here, Maggie, do you can you think of anything that we could share?

Maggie McClurkin
Um, the The only thing that comes to mind was when I had never done a project plan before. And I was under the leadership of someone else. She was the project manager. I was a project coordinator at the time and she had the project manager, Chelsie, she works with us still, she had to step away for a family emergency that week, and we had to deliver this project plan that week. And I've never even seen a project plan before.

Ashley Vega
I remember this.

Maggie McClurkin
And it was like it wasn't just like a simple little like couple It was like hundreds and hundreds of lines on this project sheet, project plan sheet. And I remember sitting there and I was like about to like gouge my eyes out and I finally was like Ashley, can you please help me? And she sat down next to me. She goes actually why don't you go sit at my desk, I have more screens, I think you need all these screens because you need to see all these different things. So come sit at my desk, I have the setup you need. Start doing this and once you get to this point, give me a call and I'll come walk you through the next part. And it was just a very like and after that I felt like I was a master at project plans.

Ashley Vega
You are a master.

Maggie McClurkin
Like she didn't she didn't do it for me. But she very much came alongside me and helped me and that was definitely one of those days where she cleared some meetings to to help me because I was so in over my head and overwhelmed. But yeah, I feel like that was a really great learning experience for me.

Jeff Ma
So it sounds, it sounds like from the perspective of being a mentor, there are these, these these values that we hold highly in our culture when it comes to trust, vulnerability, and these things that really helped that mentor really bring that relationship to the level it needs to be. As a listener, you know, I might be thinking, well, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm someone looking for mentorship, I'm not like, What steps do you guys think, can be taken? Because we just said that the mentor has to be the one to kind of open that door and step in. So some people might be in environments where they might feel like, they don't have that, that opportunity to to seek that relationship? Where should they start?

Mohammad Anwar
I would say that they should, you know, number one, you know, have open conversations with people that they look up to, and would love to learn from, if they're accessible. And if they're willing to have that conversation, it does take courage to go up to someone and say, Hey, listen, I'd love for you to mentor me and coach me, that will be the first opportunity option. But if that's not available, I would say that that shouldn't stop you from learning that shouldn't stop you from getting mentored. I personally, have found ways to learn from other people without them even knowing it, I think you can be a mentee of people that you don't even interact with, like, I watch a whole bunch of YouTube videos or TEDx talks, or even football coaches giving a pep talk to their football team. And I get inspired and motivated. And I learn, and I try to, you know, Aspire those qualities or those skills and the, you know, the things that I observe in my day to day. So I want to make sure that we don't leave people thinking that mentorship has to be this, you know, one to one relationship, and somebody has to really be there to guide you. I think what's going to make the best opportunity for growth for anyone is to try to look at everyone try to find the the good qualities in every person you interact with, or come encounter with whether that's your customer, your your coworker, your contractor, partner vendor, and always find opportunities to be observant and see Hey, what are they doing that I could take a learning from and, and absorb all of those types of knowledge and information and skills and behaviors like a sponge. And you are growing. Whether you're in a formal mentor mentee relationship or not. So I think those are the options. If you want a formal relationship, go ask. If not, there's no stopping you from learning. I mean, there are lots of people out there you could learn from.

Ashley Vega
I think too, like, as a mentee, a big piece of that being successful is having that mindset of like, I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to put myself out there. And so seeking out opportunities for that, like you have to be willing to do that if you're going to sit at your desk and you know, work on a project plan and say, yes, this is all I'll ever be like, I don't need anybody to help me. You're not going to get anywhere with with anything, right. So you've got to be willing to put yourself out there Mohammad like I, one of the reasons I left my last company was because I was like I'm not learning anything anymore. Like I am in a like just the wheel keeps turning. I'm doing the same thing every day. I'm not learning anything. And here I feel like I'm always learning from everybody around me about every, any any little thing. I'm reading articles and checking out, Ted Talks, all kinds of things. And I, I get so much like value out of that in my personal life because I feel like I'm always growing. But if you don't think that way, then you're never going to get there. You can't depend or rely on a mentor to take you on that journey. If you're not willing to kind of go along with it too, like two way street. I would say.

Maggie McClurkin
I thought it was interesting, Moh, that you said that you need to be a sponge, because one of the first pieces of advice someone ever gave me at Softway was whenever Moh's in the room become a sponge. And that's because they saw the value in everything that you said, because I think you're a mentor to way more people than you probably even know because your style of leadership is so that like, you don't just say this is how we're doing it. This is what I want it to be done. You explain why you always explain why and if we still don't understand, you give us the opportunity to ask questions. And so in those even little teachable moments, I feel like I've been mentored by you and, now I feel fortunate because we do have that one on one time sometimes now too. But when I first started, we didn't. And I will never forget Chelsie, same person as before said, Every time he walks in the room he to become a sponge. And I was like, Yes, ma'am.

Ashley Vega
I remember Mohammad, early on in my time at Softway, you were like, I need you to think more strategically, I need you to bring a more strategic mind to this project, whatever it was, and I was like, What does that even mean? Like, how am I supposed to do this? So? And so it took some time? And you're like, here? Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? And I would go off and read and I come back and be like, that was a little better. But but not quite, you could do it this way. And then obviously, always leading by example. Strategy is very important in business. And I feel like I've come quite a ways from my like, first year here at Softway. So thank you for asking me.

Jeff Ma
I'm getting I'm getting flashbacks to our episode on empathetic leadership, which if you haven't listened to go check that out, because it sounds like what I'm hearing is that like, this is empathetic leadership is this tie in directly to how to how to mentor at the highest level, because what I'm hearing is essentially that, you know, it's never like as a boss, here's how you should be doing and how you should be performing for me, or getting these results. It's always been, here's the why I'm going to take the time to understand what you're also going through, I'm going to make sure that I'm never like just pointing fingers and blaming, but I'm also helping you get through it, and dealing with these real issues together. That's that's the feeling I get when we when you guys are describing strong mentorship around and just this tie is just hitting me in the head right now. So

Mohammad Anwar
yeah, I would, I would agree with that, Jeff, like having been in this business for 17 plus years, working with people across different parts of the world, coming, you know, people come from different backgrounds, different educational experiences, different work related experiences. And everyone is at a different level. And when you need to mentor people from different levels and different backgrounds, as a mentor, you need to really understand where they are, what they're thinking how, what drives them, what is their focus, what is their personal situation and use that knowledge and empathy to be able to mentor them. And so one mentorship style does not work with everyone. I have seen in my experience that how I work with someone out of India, a team member to try and get to them get inspired and motivate them and give them the guidance versus someone in the US who's a project manager versus you know, a creative eye, you have to learn to shift your approach and be able to connect with them and speak at their level of where they are and get them to grow from them and get the best out of them. Because everyone's at a different level. But your job as a mentor, which isn't even a job because you're doing it you're doing it for the right reasons is that you will find that ability to connect with your mentee at a level that almost puts you like at the same wavelength. And you're really telepathically like understanding where they are, what they're going through why they're asking the questions. What is driving the questions and you're able to like, like guide them and coach them and give them the necessary next steps. And I think that's when you know you have this like fully strong connection mentor mentee relationship where it just becomes really speed. It's effective. It's It's It's this. It's a magical feeling when you know you have that connection, and you're able to like guide them.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, for sure. So let's bring it home. Let's tie back to love in business directly. And I'll invite Ashley again, sorry for picking on you. You're the guest. But what what's the takeaway for listeners here? Like what do they What do they take with this and go forth? And do how do they How do they change from here?

Ashley Vega
I think part of it is everyone's a mentee, you should have that mindset of a mentee at all times and take that forward into your every day. And the relationships the people you meet the content you absorb. And then secondly, I would say like just because you're assigned as a mentor, maybe in a actual role as a mentor. That's not the only way you can be a mentor. You're probably a mentor to others and seeking that out. And then investing trust and time into those relationships to help others around you be better and the best versions of themselves. Like I love Maggie to pieces like that's love, right? We would never be able to talk in the way we do, if I do didn't. And same with Mohammad. So I think building trusting relationships like that's your first step, figure out how to have those moments and break open the relationship so that you can talk about anything at work or not at work.

Maggie McClurkin
I didn't know I was gonna cry today.

Jeff Ma
Maggie, Mohammad, any other kind of closing words for the for people out there?

Maggie McClurkin
I think just as someone in the first several years of your career like, you need to look up to people that you that have qualities that you want to emulate one day, even if it's someone like Mohammad, who's years and years ahead of where you are in your career. And you no one either be a sponge if they don't have time to directly mentor you, or two ask them like I've recently I've asked Jeff to coach me mentor me about certain things. And that was kind of nerve wracking. Because everyone's busy, you never want to be like a burden on anyone. But every experience of when I've asked has been very positive and very refreshing. And it's received well, so I think just taking that step and letting people know you want to grow and you want to learn goes a really long way.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. And I would say that I love Maggie to more pieces than Ashley.

Ashley Vega
I don't know, I got a lot of pieces here.

Jeff Ma
...many more fragments of Maggie. But that that relationship for me personally, right now is something that I value a lot as well, because I've grown so much through that. And you know, we talked about how I learn from you every day, Maggie, arguably more and so. Yeah, I 100% agree. I'm glad you asked. And I don't know why I didn't offer that up in the first place. So this is really, really great. All right. Well, I really appreciate you guys having this conversation. I thought it was awesome. I got some things I want to go go forth and do. I think from the audience perspective, you know, I think it's a really good moment to think about who you currently consider a mentor or a mentee in your life. And kind of look at it from a different angle, right, like turn, you know, kind of look in the mirror a little bit and see, you know, is that really all it can be? Or am I doing it for the right reasons? or What does that relationship mean to me, and is there somewhere where we can add that love to really level it up, right. And I think that's something really important for all of us to do. And obviously important to us here at love as a business strategy. So hopefully you guys enjoyed the show. We post new episodes every Tuesday. And if there's a business topic or anything you'd like us to cover please let us know at Softway.com/LAABS. If you like what you heard, also, please leave us a review or subscribe Apple Spotify. It would mean a lot to us and we will see you all next week. Bye

Mohammad Anwar
bye.

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