Jeff Ma
Hello and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm a director at Softway, a business to employee solutions company that creates products and offers services that help build resilience and high performance company cultures. I am joined today with a whole team, my whole team to be specific. Mohammad, our president and CEO. Hello.

Mohammad Anwar
Hey everyone.

Jeff Ma
We have Chris, our vice president. Hey, Chris.

Chris Pitre
Hello.

Jeff Ma
Frank, a director. Hey, Frank. And we have a returning favorite we have Miss Maggie McClurkin, hey Maggie, she's a project manager.

Maggie McClurkin
Hey there.

Jeff Ma
So why have I assembled this group? Well, as you know, every episode, we try to dive into one element of business or strategy and test our theory of love against it. We wanted to try something today. A couple of weeks ago, we were having a meeting where things got pretty real. And we had some very direct and open conversations. And it was definitely something that left us with a lot to think about and being so into that learning culture here, we really wanted to make sure that we take our learnings extract our learnings from that we knew that we wanted to have some sort of revisit, a retrospective, if you will, around what happened, what we learned from it, what we can understand from it and grow from. And I said, hey, why don't we turn that up a notch and hit record while we do that, and make a podcast episode at it out of it? And so we all nervously said, cool. And we're going to try that today. We're all here, we're ready to unpack that story. We're going to dig into those learnings in real time. And I'm ready, I'm excited. I'm pumped. I hope you guys are as well. And that's why we're here. So I want to just kick us off with this grand experiment. And I'm gonna invite Maggie to set the stage for us, because we need to start with a story. Let's talk about what happened. Take it away, Maggie.

Maggie McClurkin
Cool. First of all, just want to say to get in the zone for this episode, I did purposely wear a black t shirt because I knew all of you guys would wear a black t shirt. And if you're listening and you can't see it, it's we're all wearing the same thing, basically. So um, okay, so let's see, it was it was about three or four weeks ago, I was transitioning to project manage a new team that has already existed. But it was also merging with my old team. So it's becoming this giant, giant, but big, big team. And so I was I was thinking through like, how are we going to make this work? How are we going to be the highest, most highest performing as possible, as quickly as possible, because when two teams merge, there's always going to be a storming phase. But I wanted to minimize that as much as possible. So there was a lot of things I thought through but one of them was on the new team that we were merged with. We were kind of adopting all of their, their chat rooms, they're just project management tools, it was really going to fall under this other team that I was kind of joining. And one of those things was their chat room. And Mohammad was in their chat room, to give feedback to just kind of be an extra set of eyes on things. But he had not been in my team's my previous teams chat room before. And for some reason, I was really nervous about adding our new team members to this chat room where Mohammad was, because I assumed it would make that my old team members uncomfortable because they weren't used to having the CEO of your company kind of quote, unquote, lurking on every conversation that they have as a team. And I don't, and I know Mohammad and I know he wouldn't throw any kind of shade or or think differently about people because of what they put in chat. Maybe it's not work related. Maybe it's fun, related. Maybe they're not ready for Mohammad to see their work yet. And they're not like emotionally prepared to get feedback from him yet. So I just assumed all these things, and was like I don't think it's a good idea. I think we should take him out of the group chat. So I brought it up in a meeting. We were I think waiting for people to join a meeting and I just said oh, by the way, I have a question. He's like, what's up and it was me and him and Jeff was also just kind of there as a as a bystander.

Mohammad Anwar
He was the one really lurking in that.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, he was lurking, for sure he was lurking. So I brought it up and I said, hey, how would you feel if I removed you from this team's chat room? and automatically I could tell it rubbed him the wrong way. So I was like, oh, but I don't have to It's okay. No worries like, it's fine. Like we can keep you in there.

Jeff Ma
Y'all, the energy, the energy in that chat was scary man. It was like not from Mohammad, but just from Maggie's, like kind of sudden realization that she took a wrong turn.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah. So instead of just being like, Yeah, no, I'm gonna stay in. He was like, well, let's talk about it. Why do you Why do you want to remove me and why? You know, I mean, he didn't mean it like that. But like, Why? Why are you bringing this up? Yeah. Why are you bringing this up?

Mohammad Anwar
If you want I can, I can tell you like what I...

Maggie McClurkin
Oh, yeah.

Mohammad Anwar
...how I felt.

Frank Danna
Please tell us, Mohammad.

Mohammad Anwar
So as soon as Maggie said, Hey, I have a question. Is it okay, if I remove you from the chat group? And how do you feel about it? The first thing I remember responding was like, immediate reaction was like, I wouldn't feel good about it. I, I wouldn't like it. And I don't feel included. But I realized my reactions were probably going to not be conducive to the discussion. So I had that self awareness right away. And I tried to reel in my emotional response, my reaction. And I tried to, like, step backwards and be like, actually, Maggie, and then Maggie started to apologize. And she was like, Well, no, we don't have to and like she tried to make light of the situation. I realized in that moment in time, no if this really needs to be a constructive conversation, I need to really now understand why is Maggie bringing this up? Before I just react and dismiss the opinion. Maybe I should, like, really learn what is the reason because a lot of things started to go through my mind in that moment, as a leader, as a person who works with others, that, oh, maybe the team told Maggie, they don't want me in there. Maybe they don't like me, maybe they don't. They don't feel safe having me around. And I started going through all of these different assumptions in my head, and I decided that that wouldn't be good for me. Neither would it be good for Maggie. So I asked, I began to investigate and ask Maggie, Hey, could we talk about this? Could you give me more details? So yeah, that was how I remember it.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, for sure.

Jeff Ma
Just for context, I was. This is actually a pretty long conversation. I was just sitting there. Listening. It was great.

Chris Pitre
I was supposed to be on that meeting. And I was late. Sorry. So when I joined, it was like, the air was thick. It was like, Oh, you just missed the conversation, Chris, I'm like, I sure did.

Maggie McClurkin
Yep.

Jeff Ma
Sorry. Go ahead, Maggie.

Maggie McClurkin
I was just gonna say and like to me like, yes, like I felt. It didn't feel as like tense as maybe it felt for Jeff or Chris to me, just because I was like, well, like, this was just something I'm bringing up? I don't know. I didn't feel like as uncomfortable as maybe I probably should have. And maybe that's on me. Maybe I should introspect on that a little bit more. But it didn't feel like oh, no, I just got chastised. Or I just got, you know, my finger wagging from, you know, the CEO, it didn't really feel like that. Just to be clear, I guess.

Jeff Ma
I think when the reason we're even having this conversation is because all that was like very much in the moment. And I think as soon as that moment passed, we uncovered a whole lot more that we wanted to explore around this, this topic, because there was so many layers around the topic of comfort that we wanted to unpack. And that's where I kind of wanted to lead this conversation. And we treat we treat conversations like this, even though this was a story between Maggie and Mohammad, we treat these issues as team issues. These are things that we can improve on as a team together. So we always like to come together and talk about them from all perspectives because there's something to be learned. So let's talk about comfort a little bit, because this is something that plagues Softway still to this day, and many other organizations that we work with and talk about. And it's like one of those things that you just you don't really see as a problem until you start, start highlighting it and so you know, Chris, I'll welcome you in the conversation here, can you can you help bring up the topic here, the topic around what comfort played in this role in this situation?

Chris Pitre
Yeah, I one, Maggie, thank you for coming forward and sharing sort of your perspective. And I'm going to pick on you, but it's really for the perspective of learning.

Maggie McClurkin
Sure, I'm ready for it. I'm used to it.

Chris Pitre
But what you what you did where you said, like, I was nervous for everybody else. And I thought that it was going to, you know, sort of create a team environment that wasn't sort of supportive, or people weren't going to be engaged, and you took it upon yourself without talking to anybody. Again, it was all assumption. And you said, I'm gonna do this to keep the comfort of individuals who have not spoken. That, for me is what we see so often. Like I've done it, everybody on this call, I'm sure has done it. And again, your intention, super pure, super good. But you made a call based on your perceived, you know, sort of comfort in terms of that environment, as well as how you want others to be comfortable. And you took it upon yourself to try and solve that with your own solution. And you wanted to make sure that of course, Mohammad would feel comfortable. So you, you didn't express what was driving your need to remove him, it was just more, again, comfort seeking. And I think that that is one of the biggest issues on a team that's the most invisible, is that once we start to drive towards comfort, we rule out anything that is uncomfortable, even if it's necessary for a real and effective and sustainable solution to come forward. And I will tell you that it's it's so subconscious, that we don't even recognize it, then when somebody tells you at first, you're like, I'm fine with confrontation, I welcome confrontation, that's usually the first response. And, you know, when you actually dig behind sort of that initial reaction, you do start to see in team, you know, situations and even individually. Comfort is the priority. Anything that feels like it's going to rub people the wrong way that people might, you know, potentially possibly react a way, that is going to create even more discomfort, especially when it comes to difference or conflict. We avoid it like the plague. And so I think that's, that's really one thing, you know, where I would say, it's, it happens. And you know, of course, then there's the reaction that Mohammad had, but I think it's important for us to talk about that, that desire to be comfortable in teams.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, and I think in that moment, I two things were happening for me, one, I was thinking through, okay, my team members that are joining this new team, they're already going through a lot of transition. Change is hard change, you know, especially for individuals who, like routine, and like knowing what to expect. And so I was kind of projecting those feelings of, they don't like change. And this is just another thing they'll have to like handle as a big change. Having the CEO in your your team's group chat versus not having him in your team's group chat. And so I was like, trying to minimize, like, the amount of change that was happening all at once, without even thinking through. One, is this even helpful for me to try to minimize this or two, is it? Do they even know what to ask me? Like, no one said it, I mean, and of course, they didn't know he was in the new group chats, they weren't in it yet. But no one had said anything or brought it up to me, I it was just a complete projection on my part. So that was the first thing. And the second thing, I think, which we can talk about further too, as I'd like to know, like how you guys feel about it as leaders in the company, like, we all as humans, like, want to be liked, and want to be, you know, have fun with people on your team. And that's something I really, I find myself taking pride in is like, Oh, my teams really like me. I know they do. They tell me that they appreciate me. And so sometimes my decisions are what, what can I do to make sure they still like me? And that's not always the best choice.

Chris Pitre
Yeah, and this is I you bring up a great point, I think because that being that feeling of being liked, is baked in comfort. Because when you're when you're like you're comfortable, you can show up to meetings late, like there's so much freedom. But again, you're not uncomfortable when there's difficult issues that come up because you can displace discredit, you know, silence those things. And so as a leader, yes, that is a part of having that sort of self awareness, but also that reality that you can still use your likeness, or though that that that feeling people have towards you to have hard conversations. And for so long, we've been I think programmed to avoid those things for the sake of being liked, rather than saying, If I had this affinity in my team or you know, this endearment or this love, what how can I use that to make this conversation more effective. And that's where you know because you are liked and because you like your team, when you approach approach that difference, or that conflict or that feeling that you have, you can position things so much easier. So those uncomfortable moments can actually be more impactful breakthrough moments, etc. And you don't have to avoid the unnecessary because that feeling is there. But so many people try and preserve that feeling. And that, you know, likeness and they don't, they don't use it to their advantage. And so that's been the biggest trick as leaders turn that like that affinity towards, you know, real resolution when it comes to differences of opinion approach ideologies, you know, discrimination, whatever the issue is.

Frank Danna
Into influence. Yeah. And it's interesting, because, like, team, what we call team one, this this group internally, Mohammad's been a part of it since it was founded, almost a year ago. Is that correct? About a year?

Mohammad Anwar
That's right.

Frank Danna
And just for context, I didn't even know what happened in this situation, they brought me into this podcast to just tell me the story. But I've been a part of this team for a very long time. And so I'm hearing this as the audience is, and I'm kind of going through it and thinking, you know, that power of perspective, that someone who's been in the group who understands the dynamics that Mohammad has, with the team that has already been relatively comfortable with him being there, is pretty powerful. And I think the mistake that we make is that when we, when we project assumptions on others, we are missing an opportunity to build inclusive understandings and practices like we're, we're missing the moment of gathering that perspective, that is truly vital. and in this situation, Mohammad actually brings a significant amount of quality to and value to the team, because he's able to, in real time engage, and he has a lot of fun. And there's a lot of conversations around, you know, joking with Mohammad and being very playful, but also, the ability to give real time feedback and critiques has also become something very valuable. So without having that, that perspective, though, that fear of of not having that, that comfort and being protected. I definitely see where that comes from, but the value of having someone like him in the room. And and as we forged more trust with the team, I think it really began to create something special. And so I recognize that, you know, and if you're thinking about someone, as a CEO, sitting in a space where other people haven't engaged with them before, that is a scary place to be, but just stepping out of that, that that comfort zone of saying like, well, let me gauge other people, let me ask other people's perspectives, that can, in a way help create a better understanding of the situation. And then I think we missed that step. Oftentimes, we just assume, you know, and that's, and that's what the story is. And so it's interesting to hear it for the first time and kind of analyze it in real time. So thanks for letting me just come in and listen.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, and like, oh, go ahead, Moh.

Mohammad Anwar
No, I was just gonna say, and from my perspective, right, like, I have been that bad leader, I've been the jerk, who has come to these conversations and just, like, caught people's mistakes and pointed out their issues and problems and was there only to only to call them out. And I have done that in the past. So I do have history where, I'm not the most conducive to team environments. I have come in disrupted the team's psychological safety, I have made them uncomfortable beyond what is needed for growth, right, I've actually made them so uncomfortable to shut them down. And so I have had the benefit and the fortunate advantage of give being given that feedback, and I've had my realization. So I've been on this journey, for so long, of trying to bring about self awareness to how I am being perceived. And I've been working really hard on it. So when Maggie told me that the first time, and I was just deflated. I was literally like, what, why? Like, I am trying so hard to be the leader that I know my people deserve. And so when Maggie said that, like, number one, I was going to these feelings of you know, you know that, you know, maybe I did something again, maybe I said something again and I started to have disappointment in myself. And I also got went to the feeling of being excluded. And, you know, I really pride myself to going into trenches and working with people by their side and beside them and when I heard Maggie said that I was like, that's a bad feeling like I felt excluded. And, and, you know, I know my I may be doing the same to my team members. But that feeling of telling, like being told, you're no more welcome to the team, right? That's not a good feeling. Like saying, hey, you're not invited to the party, don't show up here, right. So like, all of those kind of feelings went through. And sure I'm the CEO, I'm the leader. And I have to have, you know, better emotional control and, like, not let the emotions get the best of me. But some things like at the end of the day, like I'm human, just like everyone else, and I do to get excluded or feel the feelings of exclusion. Or, yes, I may be in a position of privilege, because I'm the leader. But there are feelings like that, that I would have gone through. But again, nonetheless, like I think, I pulled through my emotional state. And I wanted to make this a good discussion, I wanted to make this an opportunity for feedback for myself. So I decided to dig in, like Maggie, okay, let's talk about it. And that's it. I think things got a little uncomfortable. Like wait what's happening, but I felt like Maggie did a phenomenal job of handling my questions, because I came at it with the lens of like, now, I'm an investigative detective. Now, I want to know, now I really want to know what's going on. Because I wanted to improve. But also, I wanted to see if there is something there that maybe I can coach Maggie to do better in terms of the team dynamics and so forth. So that's what I began to dig in, after I overcame all those initial feelings of rejection that I went through.

Jeff Ma
I think there was a, I think there was a critical thing I noticed observing in that space, because it's, it's a scenario that I wouldn't say, you know, I've been in that we've seen that exact scenario play out. But we, it felt very familiar, where it can easily happen, right? where something comes up, there's feelings hurt, or something not quite right about the interaction, we all sense it. And so often, it's just brushed under the carpet, you know that under the rug, because I recognize the moment there Moh, where two things could happen, right? You could have said, Hey, if that's the decision you guys want to make, then go for it. And Maggie would have sensed that, but still been like, Okay, and then we'd be holding on to all this resentment, right, we'd be holding on to unforgiveness. And really, it would be a kind of a, an issue that we unresolved for quite some time. The other thing that could happen was that you say, Hey, I'm not okay with this, you're honest about it, but then we don't really break it open and talk about it. And then we kind of close with like, okay, the decision is to not to not, you know, not remove Mohammad. But here you have Mohammad still always wondering, and frustrated with why he was not invited to this. And you know, it's going to affect how he behaves in that group. Now, he's going to come to that group feeling like, he's not welcome, even though nothing actually changed. And so what I thought was really important in that moment from what I observed was that it was uncomfortable at that in that moment, but I saw both of you take the time to kind of step into it, not just ask the questions, but there was kind of vulnerability being shown on both sides of Maggie saying, you know, what, I'm realizing some things about my decision right now in this very moment, that were misguided maybe. And she's sharing her side openly and Mohammad having a little bit of empathy for that saying, I actually see why you would think that I get that, but I want you to hear me as well. And I thought that turned into the we painted this, I want to be clear, we painted this as a very nerve wracking like thing. And it did start that way because of that tension. But all I think it's really the reason it stands out so much, because we work so well together all the time. There never is this dynamic of like, CEO and like, like these types of power dynamics at play. And then when you sense it in that moment, it just stands out to me so much, because I mean, Maggie, you had to come to that table. You could sense the moment you said, Moh, I have a question for you. I already knew something was different because like you don't we don't even talk to each other the same. So you came like to me, you came into that situation, knowing what you're about to ask was like deep down somewhere, you knew it was already the wrong the wrong question. But you had the you had the courage somehow to still kind of like go for it. So it's just a really, really like, I really wanted to have this time to break it open today, because that's what I saw today. Like my perspective, my third party perspective, was seeing all kinds of dynamics of kind of trust being so important in that space. That vulnerability being so important in that space, and really Mohammad valuing the empowerment that he had given you long ago to take on that team because he really valued that space. What you did want to accomplish that he didn't want to say no. And then having empathy for each other along the way, all these things leading up to inclusion just really wrap that story for me something that I really wanted to revisit. So, anyways, that was my third party perspective.

Julia Good
Yeah, and I think like just hindsight, like, I obviously have introspected on this quite a bit, especially when I knew we were going to be doing a podcast episode about it. But even in this very, like, I don't think I realized until like hearing Moh kind of rehash how he felt and, and his perspective, like, I didn't realize how much you know, that small thing could hurt his feelings or anyone's feelings, not necessarily just Moh's. And then also something I've thought through kind of had started processing through kind of right after, but it's been a slow like, process is. My, my initial reaction to kind of like Chris was saying to, like, keep things comfortable, was doing two really huge disservices. And one was to Mohammad, because he adds value to a team. And he enjoys being a part of that group chat. And like Frank said, has fun. And it gets to like joining in and being part of the nitty gritty of things. But I think even the bigger one is I did the team a disservice while thinking that I was trying to protect them and keep them in their little shelter. I did them a disservice. Because I know and benefit from a close relationship with Moh. And I know what kind of value that brings to my work and my growth as just a person, a professional person. And I was kind of keeping that from them. And I didn't do it on purpose. But that's kind of what what it would have ended up doing is not facilitating closer relationships between people that are on your team with people that can help them grow. And yeah, that's just I think that's the biggest takeaway for me is, I was trying to keep them in this place that I knew they were comfortable. But I was kind of stripping them of the opportunity to grow and to have a closer relationship with the CEO of a company, which is pretty valuable.

Jane Figueiredo
I've been thinking a lot about like, I'm even further removed, right from the conversation hearing about it in this discussion. And what's interesting is, in our culture of culture of love, we we focus on recognizing moments to grow. Right, and and taking that time to pause and to learn. And I'm just thinking about what would have happened if like, Jeff, you'd mentioned one of those scenarios of Mohammad saying, okay, fine, and wiping his hands clean and not digging into the reasoning or rationale behind it. And then that unforgiveness beginning to create a chasm between your relationships in that one very small moment, without actually digging deeper and getting uncomfortable, and being willing to go to that next place, and just have a discussion about it and really unpack what was happening. I think so often in organizations, you stop right there. And you allow unforgiveness to be how your relationship moves from that point on, right? Because you're not willing to go past that point of comfort into a place where you want to just fully understand and even asking the question, help me understand why you made this choice, or why you're thinking about this makes people feel uncomfortable, because it calls into question their credibility. And so the fact that you were able to stop in that moment, and have that discussion, to me, kind of proves out the approach we're trying to take and what we're trying to show that it's, it's, it's real, and these little tiny moments, these are what create a culture where you can have high performance. It's not the big sweeping decisions that are made at a director level or a VP level or executive level. It's these types of individualized moments where you take a situation that could have created this massive rift, and you learn from it, and you grow from it as a team and you have that tough conversation. That's where the culture starts to thrive.

Jeff Ma
I want to add to that, Frank, I love what you just said there. I want to add to that, because for our listeners, I want you to really wrap your head around the gravity of what happened right. Maggie's intentions were good all the way through like she was trying to make things better for everyone. But think about the gravity of the second that question left her mouth. Everything changed, right? You can't go back once she asks Mohammad's already hurt. She can't even if she changes her mind. The only way they you know, but think about that. I think a lot of people who aren't operating in a culture of love, not that we have everything perfect here. But of course, a lot of you who don't have these tools at their disposal in their culture. That's the fear. Like you can't speak up. You can't do things because you can't take those back. And it's not that we could take it back, but we leverage the relationships, the trust, the forgiveness that we've built, so that Maggie A had the courage to even say it. And B we had the tools to overcome, what would have been a disaster, potentially a disaster in many other contexts, right? Yeah, that's so important, so important to hone in on that singular moment that can can be very defining for an individual, a career, a business, a team, all these things, that, that that aren't every day's are made up of these individual moments, and, and the importance of how culture pulls us through it.

Chris Pitre
And you brought up a term earlier, Jeff, that is really important that listeners understand which is power dynamics, right, you have a CEO, and a non CEO, a project manager who's earlier into her career, having this critical conversation, right. And so many times as leaders, there's this expectation that when someone is talking to you, they're coming at you with your language, your understanding your expertise, your education, all those things, and that they're going to position the words perfectly so that you don't get offended. And in many cases, there are leaders who don't understand their first reaction to whatever is position to them, whether right or wrong, you know, well stated, you know, poorly stated, whatever the case may be, we'll set the tone for whether that leader will be trusted going forward, whether they will be re approached with anything, even if it is sort of benign, or something that is important or critical to the business, etc. and we can easily lose sight of our reactions and our self awareness in those moments. And I'm glad that Mohammad had that resolve. I know I've been in situations where my eyes immediately roll when someone's like, the team wants to keep up. Yesterday, they were asking me how to spell crayons, and now they don't need like, whatever, right? Right, you have to check all of that. Because in that moment, I don't want Maggie to feel like she can't come to me with anything. Because I don't know what tomorrow might bring where the team might need a critical path or critical viewpoint on a critical thing that's, you know, sort of impacting revenue. And they can make the wrong call simply because yesterday I acted like a butthole. Right. And so those are the things that I am constantly trying to check myself with, but also that I've been in situations where leaders just don't think about because they are in the moment. And they believe that, you know, they should be greeted and spoken to in ways that their peers greet and speak to them. With all that knowledge and sort of gravitas and things that she builds up over time that many newcomers in their careers just don't have for a variety of reasons.

Mohammad Anwar
And I would I would like to add that my conversation with Maggie wasn't to try and not allow Maggie to bring up things like that again. In fact, I wanted to leave that discussion, allowing Maggie to actually bring issues like this for clarifications for clarity and, and like use it as an opportunity to figure out solutions that would that would be more meaningful. So if anything, you know, I know maybe some parts of this episode, Maggie, I sense you're feeling bad. But I don't want you to. Those are feelings that I shared in the moment how I felt, but I did recognize once I was able to process it, that was not your intent. You your intent wasn't to make me feel bad, your intent was to try to protect the team. And I think we hashed it out, within a few minutes of that discussion, I've already felt a lot better, you felt a lot better. And we walked away with a better understanding, better alignment. And nothing changed in terms of like moving removing from the chat. But in fact, it actually made me a little bit more aware. Maybe knowing what I know that this is a new team coming in now I do have to build my relationship with the new team members, I can't operate from the same level where team one was already getting. So I i've been more intentional about working with the team members that are newly added and building that rapport. So if anything that helped me as a leader to go back and be more aware and see how I start to build those relationships, because it is on me. So at the end of the day, that feedback, maybe it came to me in a way that wasn't wrapped up the way that I would have probably liked it. But I'm glad it happened. Because then we got to the root of it, we got to understand what was the rationale behind it. And it gave me more context, what I needed to do as a leader in that in that group chat. So I walked away with a lot of learnings and feeling really fortunate that I do have a project manager who is you know, new to the role inside of Softway, being able to give me feedback and having the courage to ask me questions like that. And that that I think is a testament to our relationship but also the culture we're trying to build inside of Softway. At the end of the day, you could be a CEO or a project manager and it shouldn't matter to have those uncomfortable conversations.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, absolutely.

Julia Good
And I think like, I appreciate you saying, I don't need to feel bad. And I and I think it's there's like a difference of like, from a person to person like Mohammad's a person, I'm a person, I feel bad that I hurt your feelings. But from a professional like learning, I'm really glad we had the conversation. Because it would have, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have even thought through any of this. Had I not asked you. And I don't know if you remember, but I actually sent you a chat first, and was like, hey, Moh, I have a question for you. And then you responded and said, What's up? And I was like, You know what, maybe I shouldn't have this in person. So I didn't, I didn't respond to him. And I waited till we were in a meeting later to like, bring it up. And I can you imagine, that would have just been really bad over chat, I think.

Chris Pitre
I would agree with you, Maggie.

Maggie McClurkin
So, yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad I didn't do that. But and then just one last thing is like, the aspect of assumption here played a huge role. Because not only did I assume, you know, how my team was feeling, but then that gave Mohammad grounds to assume that the team of people I was talking about felt this way about him, when in reality, no one had said anything of the sort. And I could have had we not had this conversation, I could have sort of jeopardized, like, some momentum or some like progress that was being made between Moh and these team members relationship, or even Moh's confidence and feeling like he had made progress. And so yeah, it just there was a lot weighted in that one small question that I didn't even realize when I asked the question, but as soon as like someone said, I, as soon as I asked it, I was like, Oh, this is a bigger thing than I think I thought it was.

Jane Figueiredo
And I'm thinking about leaders that are listening to this right now thinking like, Okay, well, how would I respond? If somebody was to bring this to me, you know, and, and I have an open door policy, but no one ever comes and talks to me, or gives me this type of information or feedback. And, you know, I think it's, it's interesting because your, your actions speak a lot louder than the words that you say. And so you, it's not just being willing to hear this, and like, I wish people would come and talk to me in the same way. It's creating that culture where this type of discussion happens naturally, where there's a free flow of conversation, that in a moment where you're able to able to actually experience this type of learning, you take advantage of it. And so it comes down to the way you behave. And if someone's bringing you something, and they say something like Mohammad mentioned, that's not really wrapped the way you'd want to receive it. How do you react to that? Do you shut down, cut them off, leave the conversation? I think most of the time, that's what we do, we end it, and we don't dig in, because it's not comfortable. And it's easier to do that, than to actually dive in and unpack what's going on. And so, you know, that that's, that's the type of thing that you can take away from this conversation is those little moments matter, number one, and number two, your willingness to dive in and to fully understand, builds better trust, and that empathy that's created as a result of that, so that you have that that gift of perspective, makes you ultimately a better leader. And when someone looks at you and says, Oh, my gosh, they took the time to understand what I was going through why I asked that question, even if it wasn't the right way to structure it or frame it. Now that relationship is even stronger. Right? So there's an opportunity here a real opportunity to take these little moments and actually create a better culture as a result of how you react in these situations.

Chris Pitre
Yeah, I think you bring up a really great point. And, you know, we at Softway, we have this dynamic where Mohammad does sit with teams, right, but other organizations, they may not have sort of the senior most leader working with, you know, frontline or critical teams. And so you know, taking this scenario and applying it outside of Softway's context, there are still those moments where even if it's just a team, and there's only sort of one reporting line difference between everybody on the team, it can still create the same impact when there is that power dynamic issue. But also, situations may be not necessarily about the group chat, but could be about you know, how we're going to approach this technology or this implementation, or how we're going to approach change management, right? Like all of these differences of opinion coming together, or feeling like someone's approach or question or concern is going to ruin or undermine the efforts that the team has already put forward. So that person gets silence uninvited, asked off the initiative, whatever the case may be. Even those things are just as sort of critical and damaging as what Maggie and Mohammad experienced and I think if I were a listener And I'm like, I don't do this thing we don't have like, you know, all of this mixing of the powers coming together. But we see things are more traditional and hierarchical, it can still be just as damaging to have a team dynamic where comfort is one prioritize anything that is outside of comfort, or brings up, discomfort or uncomfortability, is dismissed, ignored, silenced. And that's when we start talking about inclusion, or you start seeing that divide. And it's so easy to miss. Because, again, most people associate inclusion with race and ethnicity and sort of all of those physical, visible things. We don't think about ideology and communication, and how groups you know, performed together, you know, me versus we, and all those things which are informed by so many different lived experiences. And so I think it's really critical that we, we look at the situation outside of the context of Softway for our listeners, so they can, you know, make those connections and see, maybe there are things that are being swept under the rug on teams, you know, where sort of divergent opinions are creating conflict, and it feels so uncomfortable that we'd rather silence divergent opinions and go down paths that could lead to failure or, you know, missed opportunity, versus encouraging those those voices to speak up. Even if it does mean a little bit of rework. Even if it does mean a critical conversation to happen among people, that doesn't start well. But it could end well. And I think that that's something of a skill that I would encourage is critical, and how you handle yourself and discuss in discomfort and those conversations that are bound to be sort of conflicting or confrontational, because you can still be influential in those conversations, and you can still walk away being liked. Right?

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And to kind of close this out here, I think, you know, we've seen time and time again, that moments that the greatest growth and progress that we've had, and we've seen in others have come from times of discomfort. You know, we often want to be as comfortable as possible as humans, but it's proven true that we have to be willing and able to get uncomfortable. Like we like to say you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. In order to actually to get results like Mohammad likes to use, you know, strength workouts and muscle building as an example all the time. You don't gain muscle, you don't get fit with comfortable exercises. It's it's that uncomfortableness that builds the muscle that tears it down and rebuilds it right. So I what I learned today is that I really love the story. Thank you guys for sharing. Thank you all for sharing Maggie thank you for being vulnerable here today. Because it's helped me it's helped reinforce my own reminders that you know, we preach culture time and time again. And this is just a great story and reminder that really culture here was the parachute that allowed us to jump right it allowed us to say you know I'm going to get uncomfortable because if things don't go the way I think they will I have this parachute I have this the safety net of culture that helps us rebuild, get stronger and come back even better and that's what kind of played out in this small example here. And you know, I I'm curious now you know how many other opportunities we have to further dive into these types of conversations. I'd love to bring that forth for the audience some more because I got a lot out of this I hope the audience did as well hope you guys all did as well. And so with that, I want to close out the episode again, thank you guys and here at Love as a Business Strategy, we are going to be posting episodes as we always have every Tuesday. If there's a if you like this this topic if you like what we did here, if you have any feedback for us, let us know at softway.com/LAABS and we do encourage you to please leave a review, subscribe, apple, Spotify, and share with a friend. And if apparently if you want to get a lot of learning and growth out of yourself, make a podcast about it seems to work. Work for me today. So with that, thank you everybody for joining and we'll see you next week.