Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, the podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm a director at Softway and we're a business to employee solutions company that creates products and offers services that help build resilience and high performance company cultures. I'm joined today by our president and CEO, Mohammad Anwar. Hey, Moh.

Mohammad Anwar
Hey, guys.

Jeff Ma
Vice President Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris.

Chris Pitre
Hey.

Jeff Ma
And Frank Danna, director. Hey, Frank.

Frank Danna
What's up, Jeff?

Jeff Ma
Chris is trying to, if you're watching the video. Chris is trying to Brady Bunch.

Chris Pitre
I feel like it's been a wasted opportunity this entire time.

Jeff Ma
Oh, other side like that. Okay. Anyways, each episode, we like to dive into one element of business or strategy and test our theory of love against it. And this podcast at its core, since its inception has always been about culture. And not just about culture, but also culture change and transformation. If you're tuning in, there's a good chance you're trying to try you're trying or considering culture change for your team or organization. It's no secret that changing a culture is hard. We've been very real about that. And we've seen in our experiences and stories and journeys, culture transformation initiatives start and fail for organizations of all different shapes and sizes. So today, we want to talk about why. Why do they fail? And what's our approach? So, I want to dive that dive into that with you guys. In a moment, of course, after our icebreakers, and I will volunteer Chris, to go first in our icebreaker question, giving you other two gentlemen time to prepare. The question for today is what is something that is always funny to you?

Chris Pitre
Something that is always funny. So the Real Housewives of Atlanta, like I can watch the same episodes over and over, and I just crack up.

Jeff Ma
Like I somehow knew that. I actually knew the answer to that one. Frank, what's something that's always funny to you?

Frank Danna
Have y'all ever seen the 20th century like fanfare that comes into those movies? You know, *sings* you know what I'm saying? You seen this?

Jeff Ma
Yes.

Frank Danna
Well, they're these memes online, where these people try to take like flutes or saxophones and play the music. And every time it's the literally the funny I cannot I cry laughing hearing it because it's so badly done. And it just is shockingly funny. Every time I listen to it. I cannot stop laughing even even just mentioning it made Jeff laugh.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I don't know how people search that up. Maybe they can search something? I don't know. We'll figure it out. Put in the show notes or something?

Frank Danna
Yeah. Audio on the podcast.

Jeff Ma
Can we open the audio?

Chris Pitre
20th century fox is that the sound that was from?

Jeff Ma
Yeah, that's that's really it's a parody of it. I guess. It's exceptionally bad and funny. Good one. Mohammad. Mohammad what's what's something that's always funny to you?

Mohammad Anwar
I mean, if you're talking TV or entertainment, it'd be Ace Ventura. I think that's I can watch it, like, six months later and still laugh the same way. Like I laughed at it the first time is this. I think Jim Carrey is hilarious. And since my childhood, I watched his movies, and I can still watch and still laugh.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. I actually haven't seen that in a long time. You've inspired me to rewatch it tonight. So let's jump into our topic. So I kind of opened up with this. But I want to actually pose the question to all of you, you know, culture change, we see it time and time again, fail for organizations who are attempting to try. They have different approaches. They have different mindsets around it. Can we set the stage here and talk about, at a high level, why do culture change initiatives fail? Chris, let's start with you.

Chris Pitre
Sure. So one of the things that I've seen and heard and sort of looked into is the inability for leadership commitment to be shown when it comes to that new culture change. I know that a lot of times when you know, the change agents or the individuals tasked with leading change or wanting to change or hoping for a change, sometimes, you know, the activism and the employee basis where they know that change is going to provide better outcomes for everyone. Those initiatives sometimes don't get the full commitment of their leaders. And when I say full commitment, it's of course, the dollars, but also it's the willingness to adopt said behavior that the culture is wanting to embody, and many times that creates a disconnect between employees and those leaders. But also enforcement becomes difficult. You can't align policies to behaviors that are not fully adopted by leaders, you can't hold people accountable to behaviors that are not fully adopted by leaders. And so there's, there's this chasm that forms where, you know, eventually, whatever the leaders do is what remains. And in many cases, especially in culture change, when you don't really fully commit, you know, and committed all levels of commitment, you don't see that real culture change, or the envisioned culture change, taking root, but also staying consistent over time.

Mohammad Anwar
I also think, Jeff, they've, they may not be as successful, because the definition of culture in their mind could be tied more directly to benefits. And or like values and mission statements and like marketing, essentially, or messaging without true action. And even if they define that, hey, our culture is about this. And there's no real, tangible behaviors or how you have to act, and behave in those types of cultural environments, and then model by the leaders and every single individual inside of the organization, those type of culture change initiatives don't have any traction. Yeah, they're starting at the wrong place. They don't understand that. Ultimately, culture is important. And I think they get that, but they don't understand it to change culture. It requires every individual's commitment inside of the organization to change their behaviors. It starts with the leaders, because leaders have to set this tone and be the lead role model for everyone to follow. But it all comes down to everyone's behavior, and how they treat each other how they behave with each other, how they interact with each other. That's what really helps in propelling culture change, not just shiny, you know, new values and mission statement and aspirational vision or rolling out just benefits that's going to change your culture.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I remember working with one group of people, and we came in to kind of see what they were dealing with what they're they had a whole team stood up, right and all huge kind of initiative to address culture. And we looked at all of their efforts were centered around kind of rewriting or rezhooshing their vision statements, kind of creating kind of like, general comms around, what just enforcing it's their vision statements and things like that, where none of them no one was talking about actual behaviors. And when I think when we addressed the people in the last seat last row and the people who, you know, there who really embody culture that the masses, there's a general distrust of leadership, right? You talk to them, and they're like, oh, here comes a culture initiative. And then they are ready before even seeing a thing. Assume that it's going to be a flavor of the month. Yeah. Does he miss it? Yeah. Yeah, they just did. It's like, it's like, it's like dead on arrival, right? This this culture change, because people already just like, Oh, well, our leaders are gonna have some new words for us to memorize and and, and embrace, supposedly, and we're not gonna see anything else change. And we've seen we've seen that.

Frank Danna
Yeah, but Jeff, they get a fancy new desk calendar with the words on them that they're supposed to live by.

Jeff Ma
Yeah.

Frank Danna
Why isn't why isn't the desk calendar and the squishy ball, why aren't those two things enough for you?

Jeff Ma
That's right.

Frank Danna
Can culture just be swag?

Chris Pitre
If it was t shirts, absolutely. But,

Frank Danna
Yes, but then we're getting into like the quality of the shirts that have Bella Canvas, you know what I'm saying? But the reality is, a lot of times there's this emphasis placed on the stuff around the initiative. And what we've recognized is that, without the right behaviors, good culture is impossible. So it doesn't matter. If you are creating content that tries to reinforce what you're trying to say about culture. The difference between saying and doing is what we're really talking about today.

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah. And ultimately, like, we say, around here, right? Culture eats strategy for breakfast, perhaps but behaviors eat culture for lunch. So if you really need to start transforming your culture, it starts with behaviors. So behaviors are the bottom line. And so that's how we tend to approach solving the problem is, you have to start with the behaviors. And you have to start with looking at how do we change the behaviors of leaders and individuals across the organization. And there lies in another problem, which is, most people are unaware, or lack self awareness of their behaviors, or believe that they embody certain type of behaviors than what they really are perceived. Right, and there's a gap in what they think they're acting or behaving like versus how people are perceiving them. And that usually is a sign of lack of self awareness. And so that that's something that we have found is, you know, a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed first.

Frank Danna
Well, I mean, can we talk about, could we talk about Star Wars for second? Because, you know, in Star Wars you have, Mohammad is getting nervous, you have you have the force, right. And the force is kind of it's all around us. And it's not visible, necessarily. But it's still something that's intangible you felt, right. And I think one of the big realizations that people have to understand is that how you behave with other people, creates your culture. So behaviors are culture, how we treat each other, how we engage with each other, all of the the ways that we communicate, that is building or destroying culture. And so for people that are like wondering, why does, why does behavior matter in this moment? It's because the way I treat Chris or Jeff or Mohammad actively creates or destroys the culture that we have as a group of people working together, right? And so, go ahead, Chris.

Chris Pitre
I was gonna say, if we can take it to the Real Housewives of Atlanta for a minute. Just kidding. Just kidding. Although they do they are a wonderful lesson on what behaviors can do. And, you know, and the toxicity we can bring to our relationships, sometimes not even being aware of it. But as you were saying about the force, Star Wars...

Jeff Ma
I was gonna, I was gonna add that this this is we know how hard this is because we had to go through this, right? Like, self awareness is something you can, like, if you go up to somebody and say, hey, you need to be aware of your own misbehaviors. They like slam the door on you, they don't want to hear it. And that's the challenging part of self awareness is that you have to kind of reckon, with some hard truths. And that is a hard, that's a tough pill to swallow for many people, especially in leadership, because we're talking about starting with leadership, we talk about self awareness. And so the same people who make the business decisions that same people who have to initiate culture change, are really sometimes in it to just kind of push the get get things rolling in their mind, like start this initiative of changing our mission statement and start this initiative of getting swag out there. But rarely, are they comfortable, much less willing to take a hard look at themselves, and ask and look around them and say, hey, if we have a culture problem, what role did I play in it? Like me personally? What Yeah, what of how have I behaved around people that might have caused this? Right? So I know Softway to even start our journey, took some some serious, serious, introspective, hard looks at ourselves, I had to do that I'm still doing that. We still continue to be pretty hard on ourselves, which is something that that we have to talk about, right? When it comes to self awareness.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. And I think one of the biggest impediments to, to sort of willing the willingness to be self aware or start that journey comes actually, if you look at what Gallup is saying, if 85% of global employees are disengaged, we have to assume that leaders are a part of that great percentage, right. And when you are disengaged, I promise you, you are not even thinking about what you could be doing to improve on a day to day basis. And so if we're trying to ask employees or leaders to build that muscle of self awareness, it takes a level of willing to break through that disengagement to get them activated. And I think what we've learned that Softway is you have to take them outside of their comfort zone, you have to bring them to a place where they can really step aside and think about who they are, what they're doing, and also how they're impacting others in their every single day. And of course, you know, I'm talking about the Seneca Leaders that we've been doing for a number of organizations and across the world, to really try and take people out of their everyday and put them in a place into a mindset into a frame of mind where they actually start introspecting. And I know that that is sometimes a really tall order, especially when one your job has never required you to introspect. When's the last time you were asked how was the last time you introspected in an interview, or on a job review? Right? Like those are not things that we typically expect of our employees and so having leaders go off and do that, or teams or even individuals that are lower within the organization is something that is unique. But once you start that process, you can actually start to get them to understand that my behaviors actually can make a world of difference in the day to day feeling of the workplace, how other people feel like they belong or not, but also how we can impact the business outcomes and the vision that we have set.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I'm especially proud of our Seneca line of products, because there's so much centered around understanding that challenge of self awareness. And, as you mentioned, almost kind of forcing people out of their comfort zones in terms of especially when it comes to work, like we talked about, we make sure we're centered around who people are in and out of work and their, their, their motivations and their drivers. And by doing that, we've seen those results, right? We've seen people connect better, we've seen people actually kind of come to terms with that human side of themselves and the kind of more vulnerable, delicate side of themselves that ultimately has them go back and be able to address that self awareness back at work.

Mohammad Anwar
Yep. So if you were to look at how do we change behaviors, our approach to behavior change inside of, you know, organizations aspiring to change their culture is, number one, you have to start with self awareness. And how you bring about self awareness is through introspection. Second step is once you have been self aware, made aware of your behaviors, you have to commit to change. And we help those leaders or individuals commit to change through what we call micro commitments, which we'll explain here in just a bit. And then the last step is to take action. How can we encourage our audiences or our leaders and individuals to act on it in with consistency and discipline. So ultimately, when an individual is able to bring about self awareness, commit to change and act on that commitment, you are starting to get down the path of behavior transformation and change the behaviors. So when we looked at that, we obviously came up with our Seneca suite of products that helps with number one, the self awareness through introspection, and we have products for leaders and products or non leaders, because we believe every individual has to build self awareness. You cannot transform the culture without everyone inside of the organization, embodying those behaviors and values and principles of the culture that you're trying to build. So we have products that takes them through these experiences. And they're not necessarily typical training, but their experiences to help guide them through an introspective journey to build self awareness. Once they have built self awareness, we have other products that help those same individuals now commit to change, track those commitments to what we call micro commitments inside of our self paced digital products. And they're able to be held accountable through those digital products, as though it's a digital coach, who is checking in on you every day. We call this app, the Seneca In Practice. And we're making sure they're continuously committing, and they're acting on those commitments so that they are embodying those behaviors and aspiring to change those behaviors. So through our products and solutions, we're approaching this behavior change for every individual inside of the organization that could ultimately ladder up to a culture that they're aspiring to build.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, and could you I think it's worth sharing, because we recognize this challenge as unique. And can you talk about a little bit why we chose to do it this way? Like, what, what is it solving in this space in this market? That that's not being like, Why Why aren't other people successful in culture change? And how does this how is this different?

Mohammad Anwar
Number one, I think people I mean, the other approaches, aren't taking it down to behavior change, individual behavior change, they are again, like I said, They're, they're focused on the tangible, you know, communications, the swag, the processes, the benefits, and, and you know, they're, they're approaching it, believing that, you know, if you have this great environment with all a ping pong table, and an ice cream parlor, on campus or at work, that's what the definition of culture is. But the reality is, someone can show up to work which has all these benefits, but have a boss or a co worker who treats you poorly, and disrespects you. At that moment in time. None of those benefits matter. And that's what we're talking about, and they're missing the point that it comes down to those type of behaviors, but also, something that is of a challenge, is humans and changing behaviors is not an easy task, it is a difficult challenge to overcome. And so bringing about that self awareness to even get them started on the recognition that, hey, I have a behavior problem is 50% of the battle. And, you know, the, the different approaches out there aren't really focusing on bringing about that self awareness from a true introspective standpoint. And it is more through process or certain type of assessments that aren't really genuinely getting a person to have that true realization that Oh, my gosh, I am not behaving in ways that I think I'm behaving or should be behaving. And to get to that stage of self awareness, it requires deep introspection, and, and it's not like you just have a checklist, and you can just all of a sudden introspect, it has to be an experiential process or experiential journey that you go through to really reflect. So we have developed these unique experiences where we're able to connect with the, with our audiences from an empathic connection. And we are sharing our stories and through our lived experiences, we are helping our audiences find their ways to introspect and go through introspection, through our storytelling and our empathic connection, we're teaching them or guiding them in how to recognize how to introspect so that they can start to bring about their self awareness. So that's one of the ways that is very unique and different from a traditional leadership training that is meant to change leaders or become better leaders ormanagers. Yeah. Another way to look at it is like, a lot of the other culture change initiatives or leadership initiatives are focused on adding tools, or giving you different types of apps that you can use, like to to become a better manager, or expand your skills or expand your capabilities. And so if you were to compare it, it's like if you had a mobile phone, like a smartphone, and you're just adding on new fancy apps, how to manage better, but what we're talking about is not just adding apps, we're talking about how do you change the operating system of your phone, to even operate differently? And so we're trying to take leaders and not just give them new tool sets or new apps to become better managers. We're talking about how do you change out your operating system and how you even think, how you behave? how you see the world, like change their mindsets, change their attitudes, and change their communication as a result in a genuine way. And how do we do that? It's like, let's change your operating system. Let's upgrade your operating system to be that much better and improved. Before we try to add more apps.

Chris Pitre
I think what's what I've enjoyed and seeing people take to our our approach and our philosophy is one it doesn't stop at work. You'll hear many stories about people taking this home, and trying to be better spouses, better parents, better friends that are, you know, children to their senior parents, right? Like you hear these stories, right? Like we were we were in Thailand, or was it

Mohammad Anwar
Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. Where the gentlemen, after attending just one day of sessions with us, really took a step back and realize how he was not treating his family well at home and how he had really been sacrificing time with him for the sake of work. And on his way home, stopped and got everyone flowers and candy and cookies for the kids and actually apologized to them for how he had been sort of deserting them, and deprioritizing time with them, and vowed to make a change. And I know some companies will hear that and say, well, why would I pay to have somebody to make a life change? But when you think about it, when you have an employee who's changing both at work and at home, and not leaving one, you know, one place and you know, one another place or turning off and on things, you have somebody who's willing to come to work, where they're about to be a whole new person, that they bring that to the workforce, and they bring that to their work, and they bring that to their team. And you don't have to worry about whether they're going to trail off at some point, or they're going to give up or whether they're going to revert back. Because once they made a commitment at home, now you have two places of accountability, right? You have now more than just your work environment, holding them accountable to the things that they are committing to do, or reminding them reminding them of the positive things that they've done as a result of that commitment or those micro changes that they made.

Mohammad Anwar
And one more thing, Jeff that we've noticed It is a problem is even if there is real intent on the leadership side to make a change to make a difference, most of the time they're held back because their people don't trust them, or they're holding on to the past. And we've recognized that, you know, while it starts with leaders to lead the transformation in culture, if the rest of the organization is unable to let go, unable to forgive their leaders, in order for supporting their leaders to go through this transformation, they end up going nowhere. Even if the intent is there, even if the action is made. If the rest of the organization looks at this and says, oh, here's another flavor of the month, even when there's true attempt, true, genuine effort being made by leaders and the rest of the organization is not willing to support because they've been hurt, they've have held on to unforgiveness, then those organizations will not transform their cultures. So we have developed a product that is meant for non leaders and individual contributors, as well, where we are taking them through their self awareness, and make them understand how are they contributing to the making of the culture. And so we bring about that self awareness. And our our solution to that is to make our non leaders and the rest of the individual contributors recognize what the leaders are going through, make sure they have empathy. Secondly, make sure that they can have forgiveness of the leaders for their past behaviors. And thirdly, give them the tool sets how to hold their leaders accountable, to support them through their journey of transformation, with behavior change. And so we have a whole product that is just geared for non leaders, and meant to take them through their own journey of behavior transformation. And it also helps you align leaders and non leaders to each of their responsibilities and playing on the same playbook. what's expected of the leaders to behave is also the same expectations for everyone else, to treat each other, not just the leaders, but even each other and their co workers. And so we're able to bring a complete solution to the organization that's not just attacking the leaders, or focusing on one particular level and hoping that the culture will change for itself. And the third and final step is, ultimately, how do we make sure everyone is being held accountable at scale? How can you make sure that this organization then becomes self sustainable to continuously transform their culture. And so we make sure that through our digital products that we have available, whether that's Seneca Hue, which is for bringing about social awareness around diversity and inclusion, or Seneca In Practice, which is what I call your pocket, pocket, mentor, or coach, that is in your pocket in your mobile phone app that keeps you accountable to the commitments you've made, gives you constant reminders, gives you micro learning opportunities, so you can continue to learn and grow your knowledge around behaviors and culture. And then eventually giving the opportunity in a networked format for all of the employees to be able to give each other feedback, whether that is anonymous, or in a known way. But building a network in a system, especially in this remote world, where you can't see each other face to face, for you for you to have the ability through this digital platforms to be able to give that necessary feedback, which is so critical to hold your coworkers accountable, your leaders accountable and for growth and development of each other. So we're able to achieve that. And leave those organizations after we brought about self awareness is here are tools that you can now use inside of your organization at scale to sustain this transformation journey that you're on, because you will never stop transforming. If you think you've arrived. Well think again, because this is a journey without any destination. So we ensure that they're left in a scalable and a sustainable format to continue that journey of culture transformation.

Jeff Ma
Right. Great breakdown. And I think it's it's such an exciting and unique approach that I'm particularly proud of because we struggled with so much of this stuff ourselves that all start if you go rewind the clock back to what we learned the hard way, in terms of these hurdles. It's, it's awesome that we've been able to find these kinds of solutions and offer them to people in these ways that they don't have to go through what we did, essentially all through all those tough learnings, if you will, and they have kind of this opportunity to be more guided through those learnings and not kind of avoid those pitfalls that we went through also, not just us, but All the people who've already expended experienced Seneca up to this point, have helped refine it to what it is today with giving us different pieces to share with others and proof points around that. So really, really proud of what we've done in that one for sure. So, I think, sorry, Chris, did you have something to add?

Chris Pitre
No, I was just going to agree with you and tell you that I think one of the things that also I really have enjoyed is the fact that we don't shy away from the hard stuff, because been to a number of trainings that, you know, feel really Pollyanna where everything is just so well spun and make you feel so good about yourself. And you're like, I don't need to change. Like, I'm great as I am like I am value like I am a leader, right. And I think that while some of that is great to help people one feel comfortable and safe. I think that to a degree, we push it, we take it to a place where we try and get real with people. And we talk about things that other trainings and other even, you know, internal HR things don't don't get into, such as the misbehavior side of things, such as, you know, the lack of trust and an inability to build trust and, and the inability for as a leader, you to really have honest feedback coming back to you. Because, again, I think that those are the things that leaders need to hear. But many times so many, you know, coaches and executive trainers and whatnot, shy away from that. Because, you know, the sentiment is that if you push that out there, then the leader is going to feel bad about themselves and your training is going to be ineffective, because they're not going to be safe enough, or they're not going to want to change because, you know, you painted them in this negative light and nobody wants to be painted in a negative light. It's like what they're doing negative things. So I don't know how to stop that, like trying to say I want to I want to grow a garden, but I don't want to prune anything. Like no things have to get pruned. We have to be trained as leaders, right? Yes, we grow. And so the fact that we go there, one, I think is a value add, because it doesn't mean that an internal team has to take their leaders there, we do that and we get to leave, right? Like, we're not, we're not. We're not beholden to that. Right. And, you know, they can be mad at us. But then once change happens, you know, we sort of become the people that they, you know, are mad at, but they don't take it on their teams. And so I think that's sometimes a positive way to help leaders understand that it does take us to look at the bad to get to the good. Yeah.

Mohammad Anwar
Chris, you make a very valid point. But we've also figured out how to not make those leaders angry, right? We figured it out by sharing our stories, our own vulnerabilities, our own misbehaviors. So whenever we lead in these experiences, we're trying to make sure that they're not being cornered as the are persecuted, we come as a leader to leader, here's where I, this is what I do. Even today, when I misbehave, these are my problems. These are my shortcomings. Let so we open up by starting with our own vulnerabilities and our own shortcomings in our leadership styles. So when we're able to do that, when we're allowing the audience to let their guards down and create a psychologically safe environment where they feel comfortable to talk about those difficult topics, to discuss the hard things, which, quite honestly, if you are someone internal inside of an organization, trying to lead culture change, you can't really sit down with your boss and say, Hey, let me talk to you about your, you know, behaviors, we can do that more easily, but we do it with empathy. Right. And that's been our unique approach and being successful to connect with those leaders bringing about that self awareness, and then leading that change.

Frank Danna
And interestingly, like I think about Seneca Hue, Mohammad, you mentioned Seneca Hue, which is another one of those always on products. Right? And, and Hue is interesting, because it's a diversity and inclusion awareness app. It's a it's a tool that anyone can use on any device. And it's, it's chock full of basically of lived experiences, right. And I was thinking about it this morning. And it kind of erases the statement. Wow, I didn't know from your vocabulary, because it creates this very interesting relationship with people that are dealing with things that you've probably never even thought about. Where and it helps break the insulation around our lives, to see people in a different perspective in a new way. And, and, and creates moments of saying things like, Wow, I didn't, I didn't realize that. I mean, if you think about working with someone who has chronic pain, and if you've never experienced chronic pain before you may not understand and fully be able to comprehend or empathize with someone who's going through through something that's debilitating, or someone that's struggling with PTSD from serving in the armed forces or caregivers who have children or elderly parents, all of these specific elements and things that people are, are having to go through. We've tried to create a platform where those stories can be shared, where people's lives can be heard, and there's so much more. But I think it's that empathy that you were talking about, that's really a powerful tool. Because it builds, what we say is it builds bridges across difference. And that is a key to self awareness is recognizing difference. And being able to see the harmony, that difference can create, once you're aware of who you are, you can start to see and be aware of other people and what other people are going through and recognize how your behaviors impact those people around you. So that's, that's personally why I'm very passionate about the Seneca Hue product itself, and what it stands for, and what it's trying to accomplish with going there. And asking and answering those questions and having conversations with people where you may not have ever been able to do in the past.

Frank Danna
Well said.Yeah. So hopefully, you know, I think we all have our favorites. But hopefully, you've gotten a little taste of kind of Softway's unique approach to to this problem. We've we've seen it time and time again. And we set out on a mission to fix that, and change that for everyone. And so when you think about culture initiatives fail, you know, we firmly believe that you have to take a different approach, you have to look at it through a new lens. And, and we just want to share a little bit today about how we approach it, how we've gotten to where we are today, and why we even have essentially why we have this podcast, right? All these things we're talking about, are trying to get people to be more self aware. Try to understand that behaviors drive culture, and that changing behaviors is not a simple thing. And so thank you, Mohammad, Chris, Frank, for sharing your perspectives on these things and sharing your stories.

Mohammad Anwar
Thank you.

Chris Pitre
Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Jeff Ma
It's always awkward, we're formal with each other. We're very informal. As soon as we stop recording, it's it's just, it's just chaos.

Frank Danna
The tornado of craziness.

Jeff Ma
So always a good time, guys. And here to love it here at Love as a Business Strategy, we are posting new episodes every single Tuesday. So if you like what you heard, please give us a review. Send us a message softway.com/LAABS. Subscribe, tell your friends, and we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your stories and what you'd like to talk about next. So with that, I will say goodbye and see you all next week.