Jeff Ma
Hello and welcome to love is a business strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. I'm a director at soft way, an agency based out of Houston that specializes in digital transformation, culture and branding. Each episode, we dive into one element of business or strategy, and we test our theory of love against it. Today's topic, we're going to zoom in on the topic of inclusion, specifically, how businesses should be tackling it. And DNI is obviously still a hot topic. And all this buzz is causing a lot of companies to really scramble for some actionable results. And what you'll see is a lot of them are turning Two training programs, diversity sensitivity courses, and we want to talk about whether or not those are effective and ultimately try and understand as always, what does love fit into this equation? Right. So, before we dive in, let me introduce my my cohorts here. As usual, we have Frank Danna. Hello. Hello, Jeff. And I have my like, I need like an envelope to open up here because I really don't look at these questions before I ask them to you. They're prepared for me. And I look at them now. So Frank, yeah. What's the first place you're going to travel once it is safe to do so? Whoa.

Frank Danna
So the first place that the place that we canceled our trip to and in mid May, which I'd really like to travel to, is Disneyland. I was going to take my family to Disneyland and California. And so now it's expanded though, as soon as we told our kids it was support To be surprised, we told our kids like, Hey, we're gonna go to Disneyland. And my daughter was like, could we also go to Legoland? Like if we're gonna be resetting this thing? Can we like add to the trip, you know, maybe go to see some some museums in LA, you know, so it's gonna be more like an actual California Adventure. But I think that's where I'm going to go once we're able to travel. It's

Jeff Ma
very nice. Love it. Chris, welcome, Chris Petri. I have a question for you. Have you picked up any new hobbies in this time of social distancing?

Unknown Speaker
Hmm.

Unknown Speaker
If I studied this long I need to know.

Jeff Ma
For myself and everyone I picked up a new hobbies I tried.

Unknown Speaker
You know, become hobbies. It's

Unknown Speaker
like, No, no, no.

Jeff Ma
No, fair enough. No, moving on. Now. Last but not least, Muhammad Anwar, a president of soft Wei Mo, what is your favorite holiday? And why? Oh, it's Christmas

Frank Danna
time. Yeah, the whole time.

Unknown Speaker
Explain that.

Unknown Speaker
So, just running this business and being so passionate about what we do here, Christmas time is a time where I feel like I can disconnect from the business and focus on myself and my family. And in order to do that, it might sound a little selfish, but I ended up trying to give the company two weeks off so they don't.

Jeff Ma
Even if it's selfish, I'm sure it's well appreciated by all these incredibly

Frank Danna
selfish mom

Jeff Ma
it used to be used to be more skillful. Do

Unknown Speaker
I agree to be selfish every other Friday?

Unknown Speaker
No, seriously?

Jeff Ma
So let's dive in to our topic, guys. We talked about, we'll talk about diversity training, right? And it's very commonplace. Yep. But, Frank, why do you think or why do you Why do companies turn to diversity training?

Frank Danna
Alright, so I mean, like, we know this to be true, but it's really like there's two, there's two reasons why. So either compliance, just like we have to comply, or they're really trying to make a actual real change, to gain the benefits of diversity. And there's really no wiggle room in between there. It's like, we need to actually make things right in this organization, find us a diversity training session, or people are actually wanting to grow in that area of diversity. And you know, either way, I think and that as the topic of coffee. We'll kind of transpire throughout this conversation is traditional training may or may not be the right answer. Hmm.

Jeff Ma
Okay. So yeah, some some data shows right that nearly half of midsize companies are doing this. They're doing some form of this training and nearly all the fortune 500 have diversity training in place. So it's definitely industry standard. But, Frank, you might you seem skeptical. Mo, what about you? Is this the right approach? I mean, if everyone's doing it, is it the right approach?

Unknown Speaker
As far as that, I think it, it isn't getting the results that they're trying to achieve from it because data shows like after 31 years of putting in this diversity training and collecting data from almost 800 companies has shown that there hasn't been any change in behaviors and attitudes and the diversity in the workplace hasn't had too much of an impact as well and this this study was pulled from our Harvard Business Review article that I read recently, so I believe that it's not making a difference. He said 31 years, 31 years, this is data from our 31 years collected from over 800 companies. And it may not resulted. Yes.

Jeff Ma
Ford Frank was born, they started studying 829 cookies.

Frank Danna
Incredible 1988. Let's talk about that for him. That's a long time. And if you think about, like, I'm looking at all of the different things that have happened throughout all of that time from the late 80s until now, and you're saying that it has been ineffective across these 800 plus companies?

Unknown Speaker
That is correct. That is what I read.

Jeff Ma
Right. So since since there is data on that, that kind of points to which of those two reasons it's still in place, right? For Yeah, it's only two reasons to do it. And it's not actually making a difference. I guess it's it's it points to that compliance might be more of a reason to continue spending this money. They spent a lot of money right Yeah, so. So Chris, then help us out why why doesn't it work? Why? What is the problem?

Unknown Speaker
So I think one of the biggest things that I've seen happen is typically there's this like train the trainer approach to DNI training. So if we educate the leaders, they can go with their teams, and they can facilitate the sessions and conversations with their teams. Yeah, but when you think about it, you have the oppressor, going to educate the oppressed about oppression, and then asking the oppressed to comment about when they have felt oppressed, right, by the oppressor, right. So that logic is flawed, and you have teams that are never going to open up with the leader who could be operating under discrimination, bias known or unknown. Not wanting to even share or contribute or meaningfully discuss any topic where they have that discomfort, right? And, you know, I have someone in my network who does DNI for a really large company. And even on the DNI team of that company, one of their suggested approaches was to have, you know, race conversations facilitated by the leaders of teams. And she had to like, like, we were socially distancing. She couldn't shake anybody, but she wanted to, like, how do you think that's gonna go? Like, what, what do we feel is going to happen when leaders have teams that have absolutely no diversity in their leadership, start opening up conversations about race and what it means to be a minority in a company and a team where minority representation is not considered promotional velocity of those minorities is not considered where attrition rates among those minorities are not where they should be. And now we're just going to wait Going up the can of worms. And I'm going to bare my soul to you. And I've come to you probably privately probably before, and those concerns have been dismissed up until now, what do we think is gonna happen? Right? So

Jeff Ma
it sounds like they're onto something in terms of like, leaders are a place to start, right in terms of like, like, a lot would I agree, right. Like,

Unknown Speaker
each, as soon as they learn,

Jeff Ma
I think is what we're saying is very much aligned to what we always say is that, you know, leaders are the ones that have to change, like leaders have to start the change, if you cannot change organization with leaders, not as central to that equation, but they're there the way they're going about it is is is kind of the problem there. Right.

Unknown Speaker
I think the other sort of flaw in some diversity trainings is the the lack of acknowledgement of the issues and the the situations that the organization has allowed to let happen, right. So imagine Sitting there, knowing that there have been lawsuits knowing that there have been issues and challenges around the topic. And still talking like, oh, everything is fine here. Like if you just learned about what it means to be black in America, you'll be great and we can keep it going. And it's that's not what's reality that's not actually addressing the real issues that people know about care about, have cried about. And I was supposed to attend this mandatory training that's supposed to tell me how to be sensitive, when I've seen so many others around me be treated in different ways. It's it's tone deaf, it is oftentimes canned and templated. It's not reflective of lived experiences within the organization. And it's not include diversity training is not inclusive. So you haven't even gotten the perspective of people around the room before you had sort of gone around and try to mandate mandate in this society such as d&i training. Right?

Unknown Speaker
And I would have to I forget Sorry, thank you. So, um, you know, some of the things that we've witnessed with some of our customers is that they have specific training material, especially these global organizations where diversity and inclusion initiatives are for their global locations. Yeah. And they have websites and educational material that they give to their employees before they travel from location to location around the globe, to get more context to their culture, and understand where they're traveling, what they need to be aware of, in terms of their norms, and culture, and so forth. And having witnessed and seen a lot of that content. It's clearly articulated in a way that's actually building perceptions in the mind before you travel to India, or a Europe with the negative connotation, right. It's giving the negative sentiments like or in India never do this. Don't you never see this You never do this. And what happens is it's it's painting the whole population with the same paintbrush, and it leads to stereotyping. And I've had, you know, customers who asked me Hey, is it true in India? This is the case like I heard in India, you don't do this or you don't eat beef or you don't have had to like, sit down. Explain. Yes, there are situations like that, or Yes, there are scenarios but that's not all of India. That's not how, you know everybody behaves. There are not everybody doesn't eat beef. It's not like that. And what happened is this, this, this training and information that has been disseminated focuses on categorizing people and talking about the groups and as one whole, and misses the point of individuality. And so, you know, they're already forming these preconceived notions about a whole population. Through these training efforts, and defeating the Purpose of becoming inclusive and diverse. It's not as defeating it's

Jeff Ma
doing the opposite. It's

Unknown Speaker
exactly making it worse.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And then you walk in with your guards up. So I can imagine like, my, one of my, I say favorite, but it's not a favorite. It's funny, but yeah. Yeah. Europeans are skeptical. And I'm like, I've been to Europe. I know people. I know. They're not all skeptical. Right? Are they met? Are they curious or inquisitive about strategies or recommendations? Absolutely. But like, I would not approach going to Europe as saying, like, I'm only going to be around skeptics. So I'm going to therefore have to defend everything I say, etc. And so I agree with you, mom at some of those sites that try and prep people around stereotypes, actually reinforce those stereotypes and create new ones. But also, those there those things sort of give off the wrong stereotype of the visitors that are coming into Yeah, this cycle of stereotypes that are being created, because we're, we're, we're potentially setting a tone that is not the example or the reality of what it means to be from a native spot, going to a new location. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker
I totally agree. And, you know, we've witnessed when, you know, we've had to work with clients that are globally located and work with their team members from different parts of the world. And, you know, we were advised, hey, don't, don't say this, don't use this terminology. Or don't try this in Asia, especially Asia Pacific region, you know, are in Europe, this will never fly. And this is their own team, talking about their coworkers, and saying, Yeah, don't do that. That won't work. And they say, confidently.

Frank Danna
Yeah, remember, word was the actual word was don't use the word love. Yep. Yep. Because they aren't gonna connect with it.

Jeff Ma
And I remember I remember challenging them. We'd sit there and be like, Oh really? What?

Frank Danna
Why is that? Please explain.

Jeff Ma
Please thoroughly explain why this

Unknown Speaker
because Europeans are skeptical.

Unknown Speaker
It was actually like the word love. Like, if you talk about love, they're gonna shut down. If you talk about love, they're not going to engage. If you talk about love, they're not going to connect. And that's what we were told about, about people groups all around the world. And not only that, we kind of got into a little bit of trouble because we decided we're gonna go and use the word love and we did you know, it was reported up to the VP level and we, you know, kind of like, fell under the bus or saying, hey, you want to make sure Sofie doesn't use this word in Europe. But fortunately, the VP was a advocate of ours, and she was like, go do what you have to do.

Frank Danna
Yeah, it's almost envy and and everything from my perspective there. It was encouraging when we kind of shirked that and said, Now we're going to, we're going to do what we need to do. We're going to talk about what we need. Talk about. And here's the crazy part is everybody that we talked to loved love, like everybody that we were talking with, they embraced it because it's human. And so we create these stereotypes of these individuals and we forget the humanity behind the person. And stereotypes are created because of specific situations that happen, that people are trying to protect themselves or others. And that's what you're talking about Mohammed. But in doing so, you lose the humanity in the relationship building, and the opportunity to connect to someone on a person to person level.

Unknown Speaker
And the converse is true, right? So there's a thing called stereotype threat. And that is basically people that feel like they are fitting into a stereotype negatively, are so worried about playing into that that they are overly conscious about their actions or their behavior, or their style of dress, to not sort of exhibit things that might result in discrimination or result in bias results in a negative impact to their career, their success, their adoption. Their inclusion, whatever the case may be. So it's it's stereotypes can be harmful. Yes, there are good stereotypes, right? But more generally stereotypes. connotates something negative?

Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So, ultimately, what we've noticed, Jeff, is that, you know, a lot of the training material that we've encountered and have had to witness seems to reinforce steer diving more than solving the problem of inclusivity or diversity. Yeah.

Jeff Ma
And studies, there's other studies, I have few notes here, like three quarters of diversity training, you know, from these fortune 500. And like, all these medium sized companies that all do this, three quarters of them, do it with negative messaging at its center. In other words, saying, there's like implied threats, right, if you discriminate, the company could face a lawsuit. Like these types of things are the center of their training, and if you think about that, from a human, just from a human psyche and empathy is that really a Effective, are people really doing that, like, I need to change my weights. Like, again, three quarters of three quarters of all those companies doing these trainings also make it mandatory. And the studies have literally shown that, following it for five years, starting from when it becomes mandatory five years from there, they track that diversity has not improved, people are still in the same ratios of, of people of color and minorities are still in the same positions and even worse, and you ask the trainers why that is why why did that happen? And they say, Well, actually, over the last five years, everyone who has been made to do this training kind of got angry about it and became ultimately resistant to being told what to do so interesting. All these different ways that this training, the concept of training as like a course and like this thing, forced onto people all adds up to from a statistic and from a logic perspective, to be really really ineffective and and, and so For our purposes, I guess I post this I think we clearly see that people are still doing it. Maybe it's because they don't have another alternative. I mean, what, what's the right way to approach this guy's like what is if not through training? How do you fix inclusion, diversity inclusion?

Unknown Speaker
So I mean, I think one of the key things is to a focus on individuals, as Mohammed said earlier, but when you think about the behaviors that are required, in order to have an inclusive culture, you really need to tap into what are the behaviors and the mindsets and attitudes that not just the leaders, but everyone on a team or in an organization should exhibit or have in starting their allows for more practicality to creep into your organization? knowingly and unknowingly. Right. And as you mentioned, just focusing on sort of awareness of diversities and sort of differences is not enough. But I think that if there is more concentrated effort on helping people understand that, as Frank mentioned, there's humanity behind every soul, right? Everyone has something that is unique, right? But rather than just look at the differences, or try and dig into differences, why don't you just try and understand the person? Right? novel idea, understand the person get to know them, right? Like, what do they like to eat? Like, that's, we, as humans, everybody eats. Right? Those small little things go a long way. And you'll notice that those behaviors become building blocks to relationships, which become building blocks to, you know, culture, which becomes building blocks to outcomes for the business, right. So when you have that focus, it allows for everyone to feel included in the training, right? Because it's not us versus them. It's not minority versus majority. It's not group versus group. It's not you know, You're crying out and they're crying out Who should I listen to first? Right? Like, it's not any of that. It's just how do we as humans come together? So that's my honest answer. But Muhammad interested in your take.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker
I have to agree with you, Chris. And, and, you know, we have a product called the Seneca sessions, which is a two day experience for leaders that they have to go through where we go through an experience of talking about the different types of behaviors that we must embody as leaders. And I definitely agree that it boils down to behaviors. And if you look at the behaviors that are needed to build a true DNI environment that's positive is that we have to start with introspection, we have to teach the leaders to really introspect look within themselves to understand why They do what they do and even have awareness that they might be doing something that is not inclusive, down to other behaviors that we cover in this today. Seneca sessions experience for leaders is like how to be wonderful, and the strength of being vulnerable. And being a leader that just can recognize when things that you have done that you simply take ownership and apologize for and the power behind vulnerability, down to trust psychological safety, how creating a psychological safe environment can become inclusive where people can speak up, and contribute and give ideas and everybody's voices are heard. So we have this whole two day experience that we've been fortunate enough to come up with here. It's offered for our own leadership team, but then we were able to package it and offer it for our customers. And as you know, we've traveled the whole world literally last year. Here, how many continents was that Frank? For life? No, it's continents or countries.

Jeff Ma
There are only so many continents in.

Unknown Speaker
I think we visited five, five minutes total. And we trained or thousand leaders from 46 different countries, coming from all different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different upbringings. And what we found was that taking them through an experience, speaking them about behaviors and how they can change their behaviors, ultimately helps them build a more diverse and inclusive environment in the workplace. Yeah, so yeah, that's what I think is the real way to approach this problem.

Jeff Ma
The interesting thing about that mode is that Seneca Sessions is not a DNI training. You know, like Seneca session Seneca Sessions is a leadership training. But it is by our obvious obviously our opinion but it is the answer to like and we mentioned This in our other DNI episode was that DNI doesn't have like, doesn't have to look like what you think DNI is to address DNI rather problem, a problem to get to inclusion. It starts with people and so much of training is saying here, everybody, it training to me Does one or two things like like formal training that you might think of for diversity, it does one of two things. It either gets everybody to look at everybody's differences and accept diversity as this necessary thing. Or it tries to somehow get everybody to think that nobody is different. And I think those two approaches are unrealistic. And as Chris said, it's about like, like, it's about the actual individuals focusing on accepting Chris Not, not the boxes that Chris fits in. I don't need to accept you know, all women, if I can just accept the person I just said Karen, or

Unknown Speaker
I was gonna say, Chris, I was like it okay.

Unknown Speaker
Sorry guys jumping into

Unknown Speaker
that. And the other thing, Jeff is like, if if we're really looking to change behavior, offer leaders, right and make them recognize about their behaviors that could be causing a non inclusive environment. You can't change behaviors of humans through training. It just doesn't work. It has to be through experiences. So another approach that we built into the Seneca sessions was that it wasn't a typical training. It was an actual experience, where we took our leaders through a really emotional journey that made them go to the experiences that allowed them to recognize themselves even to understand, you know, what was driving their misbehaviors or their aggressions or their lack of trust. And why they were afraid to be vulnerable and take ownership like we, we were able to really hone in, on getting them to experience it through mixed activities and putting people together and, and, and taking them through this whole experience because the real way to get people to understand and change or commit to change their behaviors is through experiences. So a typical training that you're forced to take on a CBT and just go through multiple choice questions at the end of the day to say so what kind of food do Indians like to eat? And you know, ABC selector option isn't going to solve DNI problems like it requires an exponential process that allows them to recognize how their behaviors are ultimately, coming in the way of that inclusiveness.

Unknown Speaker
I think one of the best gifts from a DNI perspective that you can give to a leader is self awareness. Once they understand their behavior, their attitudes, their decision making preferences, they become now sensitive to all of the things all the people around them who could be impacted by their behaviors, their decisions, their actions, their words. And so, to me, if I were looking at solutions for DNI or looking at how to make my training more effective, I will be asking myself, how am I helping people become self aware, right. And if you're not solving that challenge, then you're never going to get to inclusion, you're never going to even see numbers move when it comes to the promotional velocity of minorities in the business or any other marginalized group that you might want to solve for. I also think that when it comes to going back to just training like and a lot of diversity training is around awareness. So just making people more aware of differences in humans, but I think that once you have tapped into self awareness and giving people that sort of found It becomes easier now to share the struggles of marginalized groups, because now empathy is tuned way up. And now I can understand, oh, man, I can, I missed that completely, I feel and something differently about that sort of struggle. Even if I don't know anybody in that struggle or have never sort of been through that struggle, I can appreciate it more, because I'm self aware that I may have contributed to that struggle, unknowingly. Right, I may have an ability to help solve that struggle, unknowingly. I may have a platform or a voice that I can lend to that struggle. And I'm now more self aware of how I do that when I do that, where I should do that. And I'm not being told to do it. Right. And so I feel like there's this build on effects and maybe the challenges that companies have gotten the wrong thinking you start up at the awareness level, and not at the self awareness level. Right. And so I think that that could be possible way to think about like, what do you have happening before you start trying to educate people on the struggles and the differences of humans, that's going to allow them to understand how they play in that struggle or in those differences as a leader.

Unknown Speaker
So Chris, not only are they focused on just awareness, they also try to implement the solution through policies, procedures and process and they don't really address the behaviors and attitudes when really that is the root problem, right? So they try to build in processes or procedures that people must follow so that you can be diverse and inclusive. But that's not enough solely It is important, but it is not enough and not the ultimate way to get a solution to the problem. The root causes, making people self aware of their behaviors and themselves and the They're attitudes. And if you don't address that you're not going to get to a DNI environment. Right? And, and ultimately, you're not going to ladder up to the business outcomes that could also benefit you from the

Unknown Speaker
an inclusive environment. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker
And I think a hypothesis that I do want to test and I know you said this, but I'm gonna try and challenge you just a little bit, which is I do believe that there's a place for technology in the DNI conversation. I do feel like there could be some effective solutions to support the personal development of, you know, more inclusive practices and self awareness. Because, like when you think about it, I know companies that have 25,000 employees and only a team of 15 on the DNI in the DNI program, right? How are they going to scale to touch 25,000 people and there's only 15 people like, I don't even know if there's enough hours in a year. You know, doing an average work week to give them the chance to touch every human So I think that, you know, if we think about sort of the mission of software, bringing humanity back to the workplace, and thinking about our skill sets, I want, I don't want to, in that mission and not have tried to tackle this problem through a technical solution, right. So I challenge you a little bit. And I know this wasn't your point. I just thought like in case the listeners out there, this is what people in the back. Right.

Unknown Speaker
So just just to just to respond to that. I said, process.

Unknown Speaker
A few set a few statements ago, it was a sure.

Unknown Speaker
Let me get to this.

Unknown Speaker
I like drama. I like drama.

Unknown Speaker
So ultimately, you know, software is about humanizing technology, right? And we just talked about how experiences are needed to transform people's behaviors. You can just do it through training. But we also believe that as experiences shaped people, technology, shapes, experiences, so we know as technologists, we have the ability to shape the human experiences. So I'm actually agreeing with you. I think there's a place for technology to solve that problem. Processing processing procedures is not solely enough like, technology, we could do it.

Unknown Speaker
So you made the comment about, like, CBT is around like asking anyone for food like you ate that. There was that conversation, just for clarity is not the process.

Frank Danna
That particular question. Okay, well,

Unknown Speaker
I can tell you the, what was used to build that CBT was built with the wrong negative notion. So exact problem wasn't the CBT it was how the training was built, right? But also even in that even that CBD it doesn't need to be a boring multiple choice question assessment that I have to pass, right? Like we could build experiences that are personalized and you can consume at your pace, your interest level, and that allows you to go through your journey of learning and self awareness. So we should graduate Look to building cbts that are not linear, but personalized to the user experience, then they're more apt to consume that information and go through it at their pace, and their awareness level and their journey of transformation. So I don't disagree with you.

Jeff Ma
On this obvious troll, trolling from Chris worked out here. Congratulations, Chris, way to

Unknown Speaker
go on that with the people in the back who heard no, it might have taken away something that we didn't Tim

Jeff Ma
is irrelevant. Here's a relevant message I guess I have on that is basically like there are I mean, we're gonna get emails that are like, I do diversity training, and it works just fine. Like and again, like this good. Like, we're not we're not actually we're not actually saying here that like all diversity training is bad and you're doing it wrong. So so it is relevant, saying that, you know, process tools, behaviors, like we're trying to connect them all together. And at the end of the day, it's actually if you're upset by any of this because Cuz, you know, you're doing DNI for your company, and you take offense to this. Great. Like, we hope you thought we hope you thought about it a little bit because that's that is that is the point is that you, there could be elements you're missing. And there could be outcomes that you're not, you know, you're not achieving from from one angle and we and that's the whole point of this podcast at the end of the day, to be honest, is that we want you to be able to look at things from a different lens if you're not already. Right. So I'm glad you trolled Mohammed Chris, I'm glad that he took the bait and went after it because that's the type of conversation as time comes we have to be having

Frank Danna
overall. Like DNI training has to evolve. It has to to become something that actually affects change, right? Because right now, we are so

Jeff Ma
boring.

Unknown Speaker
As a minority, I'm telling you, it's boy

Unknown Speaker
I would, I am the subject matter, and I don't want to sit there.

Frank Danna
It has to it has to evolve. And it has to also there has to be this, this more holistic approach to how we do it. I think that's really the the understanding here is we're not saying that it's evil, we're not saying that it's all ineffective. But there are so many different ways that we need to be tackling these things. And what it feels like is that a lot of these trainings that have happened, all the data that supports what we've been talking about, it falls to the lowest common denominator. How can we move fast? How can we not offend anyone in this conversation, like the people paying for the training? And how can we, you know, just get it done. and in this situation, we're saying tough conversations are required, experiences are required. And we have to own the opportunity here instead of letting someone tell us that we have to own it, right, which is that self awareness and so for me, that's, that's really where when people listening this going like I don't even know where to begin. I'm overwhelmed. You start with yourself, you start with that place of self awareness. And so that's, that's my biggest takeaway is I need to be self aware in these moments. And for people that are are wanting to offer diversity and inclusion training, recognizing the importance of that, that's, that's what I took.

Jeff Ma
And that's, that's the whole that's the whole tweet right there. Good. Right, nailed. Frank nailed it. I think that's a great way to close this out. Because I couldn't have said it any better. I think that's, that's, that is, that is our stance as a whole as software, but also something that I hope the listeners, really, really go back and think about. So thanks for that. So, yeah, this was great. And, you know, hope hopefully, this provokes some thought. We'd love to hear from you guys, the listeners about what kind of thoughts that did provoke software.com slash labs. l ABS is how you can come talk to us. And we'll be posting another episode now. Next Friday, so look forward to that. And like to thank, you know, every time I thank you guys for the podcast, there's an awkward amount of goodbyes, we say to each other that we have to edit out later. So let's try it. Thank you guys for your time. This is fun. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you, guys.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai