Jeff Ma
Hey folks, mark your calendars because on April 27, we'll be launching our new book, which is of course titled, love as a business strategy. Visit LoveAsABusinessStrategy.com for more info, and sign up for a chance to get a free copy. And if you're interested in bringing love as a business strategy to your organization, we are now offering free mini sessions of our globally resonant Seneca Leaders training experience. These mini sessions dive into three topics to help begin transforming leadership behaviors and influencing culture for the better. Space is limited. So visit softway.com/events to learn more, and RSVP now, enjoy the show.

Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm a director at Softway. We're a business to employee solutions company that creates products and offers services that help build resilience and high performance company cultures. I'm joined with some of my favorite people and some usual guests here with my colleague, we have Mohammad Anwar, CEO and President of Softway, hey, Moh.

Mohammad Anwar
Hey, everyone.

Jeff Ma
We have Chris Pitre, Vice President and Project Manager, hey, Maggie, I'm ready to have some fun. My colleagues here don't really know what's about to hit them. And if they look a little uncomfortable, it's because they have really no context as to what's about to happen. So all of our learnings at software, all the things that we teach others, a lot of our beliefs, they come from our lived experiences, we didn't study it somewhere and then regurgitate it, these are all really found it in what we have experienced. And actually, our very best learnings come from the mistakes that we've made. So I wanted to take an opportunity and share with the world. One of our infamous stories I was saying, and open that up and and I can see him on his face. Which one is it? So Well, we I want to take an opportunity to dive in to what we learned and how we feel about it now. So Moe, if you open up a link I sent you, I've sent you a document Hold on, I like you to open it up, it might look familiar to you. And I'll set the context for the audience while you open that up. So this is this is a transcript of an email that was sent from Mohamad all to the entire organization in 2015 this was this was this was this this list email is something we laugh about often today but it was a very sick I mean it was it was a thing so but without too much more context what I'm going to actually ask you to do Mohamed, this is going to be weird because I don't think you've ever done this. I don't think you've ever had to do this. So I apologize. Oh good. But I'd like you if possible to read that email out loud. we've all read it but no one's ever heard it from your voice. So this is going to be this is going to be interesting

Frank Danna
It's printed and framed to one of my rooms I promise you so everyone

Maggie McClurkin
Moh looks very uncomfortable.

Frank Danna
If you're not watching.

Mohammad Anwar
I am very uncomfortable.

Jeff Ma
So we're gonna kick things right off right into this we're gonna see what we can learn from this as a group but Mohamad just for everyone's conscious remember this is this is 2015 A while back this is an email sent to all all I guess all people in the US office the entire US, just us from from Mohamad. Go take it away, mom.

Frank Danna
All right. All right, here it goes. Hello, team. It's really disgusting to see our fridge. There were items like empty bags, last loaf of bread with mold, empty milk cartons, sauces, rotten bananas, and these boxes with food for days and days altogether. Really? Is this the hygiene you guys follow in your own homes? Disgusting. Here's the deal. We as a company are not required to provide you with a refrigerator. If you guys cannot take your own trash out the fridge on a regular basis. I will not continue to tolerate this. You may do whatever you please with your own refrigerators. But you're not allowed to soft freezer frigerators as your science experiment lab. I I will give time till this noon. For the folks who would like to reclaim their lunch boxes and take them or they will be thrown in the trash. This just demonstrates the lack of hygiene discipline and it shows how lazy some of you guys can be to throw trash. I mean empty bags and empty milk cartons. Seriously. I also would like an acknowledgement reply to this email that you all understand that we need to keep our refrigerators clean by end of the day to day. The ones who did not respond to my email will help me clean the refrigerator tomorrow. Thank you. Okay, so

Jeff Ma
First of all, before we before we dive into this, thank you Mohammad for your courage.

Frank Danna
Come on.

Jeff Ma
So first,

Frank Danna
I think it looks worse in writing than...

Jeff Ma
There's a lot of caps, all caps that you didn't really articulate in your. But maybe we'll maybe we'll leave in the show notes, maybe we'll put that transcript out for everybody. But, but Mohammad, before we dive into it, I want to give you a chance to first clarify, give us set the scene a little bit and give us a little context of what that email is. What's happening is

Frank Danna
I want to see that that anger comes up, just boil up to the surface guy, well, I want to feel the frustration, we are not required to provide electricity or oxygen. You're not required to provide doors, and I will remove your door.

Chris Pitre
If it helps you feel any better. I cringed a second time listening to you read it. So it's still very impactful, it is impactful, I will give you that.

Jeff Ma
So let's, let's get let's give let's give him some space to I guess, defend himself. I don't know how you want to do this. Go ahead.

Frank Danna
Okay, so I I don't know if I have any defense to this is embarrassing. You know, looking back over six years, to when I first drafted this evil to the company. You know, I think at that moment and timeline, something about me is like I I've, I've gone through a long journey of being in this leadership position almost 18 years now. And in 2015, I think I was at an all time high in terms of my ego. And in terms of my power and authority that I believe I have for our team. I think it had been like 13, or almost 13 years in the business. And we had been quite successful, right. So. And I believe that all of that was because of me. My, my abilities to lead the company through control and authority. But so I think this is just one of the proof points of how I used to behave. But I think in that moment in time, I was there's no justification. But I think I was having a bad day. I came into the office, I was extremely stressed. I think I had a lot of things going on in the business at the time. And I think we were also facing really severe financial constraints and problems in the business and almost leading to I think I at that moment in time, I didn't know it. But I think we were getting into the line of almost existential threat. And so I was extremely frustrated. And, you know, I walked into the office that late morning, I didn't come in early morning, and I was trying to take my lunchbox to place it in the refrigerator. And when I opened it, I don't know, I had been seeing this all these days, but I just never did anything about it. But that day, something got to me and I saw like all these, like it was really dirty refrigerator and something provoked me. And I immediately I think went back to my desk. And the first thing I did was type this email and hit send. And I didn't really make much out of it actually felt relieved. I won't lie what I had said I was like, Yes. But I think remorse and regret definitely took place, maybe eight or 10 hours later, when people started to, like, suddenly avoid me a little bit, or behave a different behave differently around me. And then I think it started to sink in that Oh, crap, I did something that I probably shouldn't have. To be honest, I didn't think it would come and haunt me six years later, Jeff in the public setting.

Jeff Ma
So so so first of all, thank you for sharing that being willing to kind of own that space. But, you know, I have a reason for wanting to bring this back up, right. This was something that we joke about, like once I said, you know, it was a it was an email, everyone knew what, what you're about to read right away because it just lives in infamy. But it's not, we're not doing it just to pick on you. I wanted to talk about it today. Because, you know, this email was brought up in our Glassdoor reviews for months to come after that. Maggie, I invited you because you weren't working here during that time. And you know, I wanted you to hear it. I wanted you to take a look. Because you know mo very well, you know Muhammad very well. And we talk about our transformation, our journey all the time. And, you know, we don't claim to be like, you know, you know, academic experts on culture, but we definitely claim that we've had some journeys through culture and Mohamad, this email, to me, at least stands out to me as a great kind of landmark of our journey. To, to map back to, because I speak for myself, but I can think that most everyone organization would be would be absolutely flabbergasted if anything close to this email came out from you today, which is a testament to your journey testament to your transformation and change. But there's a bigger picture here, I wanted to talk a little bit about that. And I open the floor to anybody who has any immediate kind of reactions and comments to start with.

Frank Danna
Well, I just went back through Muhammad, you actually took pictures and attached pictures to that email. But never say pictures of the fridge. I just went back in and typed and typed a refrigerator. And the subject line was fridge trash, all caps.

Mohammad Anwar
Oh, God.

Frank Danna
And and, you know, I noticed too, like in reading through all the responses, because you said you need to acknowledge this. Right? And let everybody know that you've read this email. And it was just understood. Understood. Understood. Understood. Yes, sir. Understood. And so, you know, I clearly you see the incredible transformation, I think really is is what I'm getting out of this, like, we call we call you more like mo 1.0. Right like that, that point in time, it was very much that command and control that authoritarian leadership. And so you reading this now, sounded like you were reading some random person's mean email, not you. And so that's, that's, for me is the most striking thing. And and it also speaks a lot to how those responses also spoke to me in regards to like, all the replies, there were just, Okay, got it aligned. And, and that was that was it, right, because they don't want to rock the boat. Nobody wants to push back. No one wants to, everybody wants to keep their jobs. So we're gonna stay as close as we can to try not to upset you anymore. And I just I think it speaks a lot to to where that culture was and what people were feeling at the time.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. And for me, that was my second week on the job. That's awfully Imagine my surprise, when I got that email, your latest directions? Yeah, initial reactions is, you know what, I'm actually going to avoid this. This ain't my fight. I didn't create this refrigerator. Like, clearly, there's some history here. Right. And then the more we went throughout the day, people were pulling me aside from all different levels and all different teams across software, and they're like, hey, so you're new. And Mohammad, you know, really likes and respects you. So you should go and have a conversation with him about that email, like, like, you know, my god. Right. And I remember, it was happening so often so frequently, and everybody's like, whispering, Chris, you know, I want to talk to you about your car insurance, right? Like, that type of website, where your warranty needs to be renewed? Like it was those types of secret meetings coming my way. Like, why is everybody afraid to go and have this conversation, but I took it upon myself. And I think, you know, I set a meeting up with Mohammad was on a Friday afternoon. And I, I wanted to have a one on one with him to talk about it in person versus replying to the email. And I don't know if you're called this, Mohamed, but, you know, I sorry, I tried to softly bring up the conversation is like, so I got your email about the refrigerator. And I just want to understand, like, where you're coming from, because I, you know, I'm still new. But I know that it seems to have bothered you. And so he was trying to explain, and you know, he really wasn't getting that I was here to talk about whether that, you know, was appropriate or not. And so he just like, yeah, you know, the team was late, like, he was reinforcing the messages in that email. And I said, but do you think that there could have been a better way to handle this? Like, could we have, you know, maybe done a different thing right or bigger? He's like, Chris, you don't understand. I've been trying to get these people to clean up this refrigerator. And is this nasty? And like, he dug his heels even more? And I was like, Well, I'm just gonna be direct with you. If you would have sent that email at any of my previous employers, you would have been fired. It's different here. You're the CEO, but that's the reality and I don't think you know that that email has now been sent to former employees of the organization. And so you are now a laughingstock cuz I literally said,

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah he did. I remember that. I remember that.

Chris Pitre
It's, like, you know, again, I tried to be comfortable first and then coming back to like, Okay, he's not getting this. I'm just, you know, rip this, you know, Band Aid off. And so that's what he was like, oh, oh, and I was like, but just to give you you know, my opinion spective I feel like you could have used your directors to help you get, you know, get this fridge in a better state, we could, you know, sort of circle through teams that could have, you know, been a little bit more collaborative and how we come, like come to a solution around this, because it's not that you're wrong, like their fridge is disgusting. But there could have been other avenues. And I remember had that conversation, and he was just looking at me, you know, and at first he was trying to defend it, and then explain away why I didn't get it. And then finally, he just started listening. And then as we were walking out together, because that's it was at the end of the day, he was like, I probably should think differently, like, thank you for bringing this to my attention. Like, I'm sorry that you had to have this conversation with me like he started apologizing after like, it hit him that I think, but the gravity of what he had done is a little more widespread than maybe he wanted, but I remember being my first sort of crucial conversation second week in with the CEO. And, you know, having everybody sort of like put their faith and trust in me to have the conversation. That was it was definitely uncomfortable. But it was it was one of those I think, growth moments, but it's still interesting to go back and read it, reread it and listen to how to read it. And you're like, oh,

Frank Danna
And I want to say like, I think I probably would have never had that self awareness. Until like Chris human even had that another I think about it. I don't think I really had remorse till Chris spoke to me now that I recall that conversation. Great. Thanks for reminding me. But yeah, you're right. I think what hit me was when you said, had this been any other company, you'd be fired by now for sending that email. And I was like, why? And it really got to me. And I think that's what really got me. That's when I started to change my night in defensive attitude. I kept kind of destiny. I do remember writing, I was justifying why I did it. Because it was everybody else's fault. everybody else's mistake. And they just kept trying to justify, justify justify it. And as soon as he said, had this been some other company, and you send this out to be fired. And that's when I was like, wait a minute. So I remember that. But I can tell you right in the moment. I don't think I I, I still tried to justify, in my mind. I think I was still trying to figure out how do I come back out of this how, like, my ego was not allowing me to accept that. It did. It did provoke thoughts. But that doesn't mean I accepted it right away, either. Because my ego was in the way of like, you know, trying to get me to realize what I had done. So that was a that was definitely something that I think looking back at it now I'm like realizing that i i was so like, I couldn't, I couldn't take feedback. And I wasn't willing to understand or appreciate the gravity of what I had done. Even though you were giving me direct clues, and I was still not able to get it.

Chris Pitre
I think for me, like I wasn't as scared because I was still fresh off the job markets. I was like I can reengage you know? This doesn't work. I rather get out now.

Jeff Ma
I think I think Mohammad like I think what's interesting is that we you know this story is history. But like as we when we share it with others, how much it actually still resonates. It's kind of scary how much it resonates with some people still how people's hear like, you know what, I've gotten an email similar to this, you know, it wasn't about a fridge. But yeah, how much that this goes and how much self awareness is actually lacking out there. For for many people. This is not a like we share it because it's one of our favorite. It's funny to us now. But it was it was actually it was detrimental at the time. But it wasn't this like unique, like, story that only happened here. We found as we've explored and learned from other people that this is not this was not actually behavior that was so far from something that was seen out in the world. And as part of the reason that would set us on this journey, right, like knowing that other people that after we came out of that Mohamed, after you started transforming after we followed you through that, and then we're still on that journey. But after we did that, we look back and we said actually, everyone has these problems. That's what started like this, this, maybe not this email, but this email is a great example of what really inspired us and motivates me just passionate to do what we do today. Is that knowing that these emails still float around out there in other forums.

Frank Danna
Right. Yeah, we we've heard that both people receive these emails. And when people read it, they go, I've sent these, I've sent something like this right? And so just knowing how that impacts your culture, how that impacts the people around you. And and I'm thinking back to like, if if we The fridge would have been disgusting today. I want to put Muhammad on the spot. How would you have responded? Now versus?

Jeff Ma
Actually, before my answers that I want to hear from Maggie first? Actually, I'm curious, Maggie, how would you expect Mohammad to respond?

Frank Danna
Ah you're giving him time to think about it. You're giving him time to think that's okay.

Jeff Ma
Like, I mean, let me you know what general thoughts, because I want to give you a chance to speak for sure.

Maggie McClurkin
I think the first thing that comes to mind...

Jeff Ma
That's how choked up she is about it. She's Yeah.

Chris Pitre
Gets your breath. Breathtaking. It's a breathtaking email.

Maggie McClurkin
The first thing that honestly comes to mind as well, like, look how far we've come, not just Moh, but all four of you guys. So I feel like I came to Softway at a very fortunate time where you guys were already pretty far along in your transformation journeys. I mean, it's always a journey. So it's never complete, but you guys had had done a lot of work up until that point. And so I never knew not only this side of Mohammad, but I never knew the side of Jeff and Frank to like, not feel like they could tell Mohammad. Hey, that's not cool, man. Like, like, cuz now if Moh does something like that, all three of you would be like, I don't know about that. No. And you wouldn't even be scared really to say anything like you would just you'd be like, no this and it wouldn't even have to be this big scary conversation like Chris was. Chris wasn't scared cuz he was new. But it wouldn't have to be this like, oh, gotta dodge Moh today, because he's, he's mad, and I don't want to say anything. So I think it's a huge testament to not just Moh but to everyone. Because truly like, Jeff and Frank like, I mean, y'all were leaders in the company too and you didn't do anything.

Jeff Ma
I literally literally hid in my office that entire day. I remember my doors usually open I closed it that day. And I just, yeah,

Frank Danna
I just sent understood as a response period. I understood period.

Maggie McClurkin
Yep. So that's my big takeaway. That's not just mo that I see growth in. It's all you guys.

Jeff Ma
That's good point. Thanks.

Frank Danna
Okay. So Frank, your your question is, what would I do today?

Frank Danna
Without any time at all to think about it. Well, no, how would you? How would you handle this type of situation now like in terms of in terms of the fridges, gross, people aren't taking accountability for it? What would you do?

Frank Danna
I personally think the first thing I would do is I would attempt to clean it myself. And, and try to bring others along the journey with me to kind of help me clean it, like inspire by leading and walking the talk. and demonstrate by example, that would be the first step. But then the second step is, once I've done that, then I would start having conversations with the people that I think could be contributing to the refugee situation independently, instead of sending a mass email. Because I pretty much knew whose lunch boxes were who I got into, like, I could have just gone to the people and say, Hey, can you please make an effort to take out your lunch? Or don't leave it in there and have a conversation like, Hey, I'm seeing it happen too often, then, you know, hygiene is important. And can you please make that effort to clean it. And you know, I would have done it one on one, I would have had conversation with the people who were contributing to it not punish everyone, for the act of few. Because back then, if even some people did it, my goal was I'm going to punish everyone for it. Like, if they're only like five people who are the ones guilty for making the fridge dirty. Everybody suffers. Right, everybody's punished. So those are the kinds of things like today would be very different. And then I would probably also talk to Frank, Jeff, Chris, and, and say, Hey, guys, you're you're part of the leadership team. And you also have to lead by example. So I would expect you guys to have the conversations with your team members that you know, or are contributing to this and or, you know, I want you also to help clean the fridge and set the tone and set the example because leaders set the tone at the end of the day.

Frank Danna
That's a very different response.

Mohammad Anwar
Yep.

Jeff Ma
I'll be I'll be honest, I remember. Back then, when the email hit the first thing I thought of was, Do I have anything in the fridge? Do I need to go take something out? Was this me as well as like the self self preservation thing? And Frank, as you as you pose the question to Moe, like, what would he do now? I also asked myself, What would I do now? I think it's super important to like, for me just now to kind of realize actually, even now I probably would first think if I had anything in the fridge, but because mo came and talked to us and set the expectation, you know, I would really be taking a hard look at, like, how I can really help the situation how I can really help, you know, alleviate that issue, not just for Mo, but for the company and for others, which is a very different mindset from from what I had back then as well. So I think I attribute a lot of that to the entire culture journey we've been on not just a personal one.

Frank Danna
I also think, back then I wasn't the only one who had, like, felt this way about the fridge. I know that there were quite a few people who felt this way about the refrigerator, but nobody just did anything about it. There was like this. Absolutely. They had there is like this sense of like, you know, there's frustration, the fridge is so dirty, but nobody would talk to each other about, like making a change, right. So that that frustration did exist beyond me today. I think, with our culture, maybe I won't even have to do anything you people would have handled it.

Jeff Ma
That's a great point. Yeah.

Maggie McClurkin
I was gonna say I think that's a testament to our culture. Because in our office before COVID. People just were like, Hey, we're cleaning it out on Friday. Get your stuff. It's gross.

Frank Danna
Exactly. Exactly. People like there were I just wrote down cleaning committees, there were people that basically just said, Hey, I'm seeing that this is this is getting a little dirty. We're gonna take some time anybody's invited to come and help.

Jeff Ma
Right? People will show up.

Frank Danna
And I remember like, and if I would randomly walk by and see something that was expired, I just grab and throw in the trash. Like, I wouldn't even ask anyone if this is your siracha I know it's expired, I'm gonna throw it away for you know, but the cleaning committees, there were groups of people that basically said, we're not two minds together.

Chris Pitre
And that mindset evolved, because I remember after Mohammad's fridge email, there was one person who just started randomly throwing away stuff when he thought the fridge was crowded. And he accidentally threw away someone's lunch that they brought it in that morning. So when they went in to sort of eat their food, they started walking around the office asking, Hey, have you seen my lunch? And this person who threw it away, I'm keeping things anonymous, because I don't want to, you know, out anybody unnecessarily Jeff, you know, the person who threw it away was like, Oh, my gosh, I am so sorry, I threw away your food. And he started describing like, he has spent hours preparing that that meal because he was learning to be it was like this crazy story. And he had to get his, his lunch, you know, paid for by the person who threw the food way that was an offer. But I just remember that that mindset sort of transferred into this, like, well, I'm gonna take it upon myself, since I sent that note out that it was

Jeff Ma
It was like an over like an overcompensation.

Frank Danna
Yeah. And, you know, I'm thinking about, like, that new office space that we that we had. And one thing that I think is very clear, and was very clear, when we moved into that space was it, it transitioned, as an organization from this is theirs, to this is ours. And, and I feel like that type of culture was very pervasive. It was, it was a, this is our space, and we want to take care of it. Right. And, and so a lot of those people that were on the cleaning committee, they hadn't experienced the fridge, email, because they were newer employees, you know, but we had cultivated this, this culture of love, that created the actual responsibility and the desire to keep our place to keep our home clean. Right. And so I think it's just a testament to that approach, and in what happened with with the way people engage with that space.

Frank Danna
But Frank, before the transformation, I think I set the tone for others to just go throw away stuff, because I, I gave permission, right? And I made it. So accidentally, or intentionally people are throwing away even people like legitimate lunch from that morning. And, and also, I also gave permission for people to write emails like that. So something that I'm reflecting on right now is, I set the tone for how leaders should behave. And I acted like I guess I did this, now that I reflect on it is that my leaders weren't behaving the way they were just because that's who they were. It's because they saw me behave in a way and set the tone that they said, Oh, I now have permission to write emails like this, the whole company, I now have permission to just go throw things in the refrigerator. And I basically, in the moment, set the tone set the standard of how things had to happen.

Jeff Ma
Speaking from a leadership perspective, at that time, though, I would say the way So it wasn't even that you gave permission. It was that like, that's what was expected of me. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't permission thing, it was like, this is the way it's supposed to get done. And even if I'm uncomfortable, being a little more, you know, direct and maybe sometimes blunt, in that delivery, I saw that that was the way that things get accomplished, because that fridge was cleaned out. And by the day, it was smell it smell great. It smelled like pine saw his smell, it was wonderful, as immaculate. So I was like, I guess, you know, that's the way if I want to lead here, I'm gonna have to do that or not learn how to do that.

Frank Danna
Yeah. But then over the course of a few years, right over the course of this transformation journey, where Muhammad starts to adopt and like live servant leadership, and do his best to try to emulate that. And we begin to reflect that as well and start to change our culture. Suddenly, when we get to this new environment where there are more than just one fridge, right? More more opportunities to fail. People are posting on chat asking, Hey, whose food is this? I don't want to throw this away. Because I want to make sure that your food is kept safe, right? So you can see that transformation of what you had...

Jeff Ma
Now, those are all people who didn't don't know about this email.

Jeff Ma
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. It just is this incredible culture emerged after the fact where there was more focus on inclusion, there was more focus on accountability, like the cultural pillars that we talked about, all of these things are actually present in the way people would engage in this new space, right. And it's because of now that tone had been set, but it had been changed. And so the good news is that our fridge was pretty much clean in the new space.

Mohammad Anwar
And I think, reflecting back on this, the email about the refrigerator, we might be laughing about it and talking about it in a way, six, six years later. But I think what it's what I'm realizing is that there could be leaders out there like me, doing things like this, not realizing the consequences. It has the over arching culture. For them, it's always this one email about a refrigerator. No, it's much more than that. It's about your entire culture of your company, which could have consequences to even your business outcomes. And that one email that one, like, you know, moment of like this satisfaction, I wanted to have, by descending that out, was setting sending us backwards in our culture by so much more than what I think I intended to create. And I think at times, we don't realize as leaders how even the simplest actions simplest behavior behaviors that we demonstrate to our population, our people, our company, our employees, our teammates, can have such long lasting impacts and consequences to the business and, and yeah, looking back at it, I'm just realizing that, you know, it isn't even like my big, it isn't even my biggest, like, example of how I was misbehaving or what I did wrong. But it was just that one consequence that even six years later, you guys are talking about it. Bigger consequences I had.

Chris Pitre
But I also would say that the other thing to, for listeners to take away, especially if they identify with you, Mohammad, is the power of redemption. I think that, you know, over those six years, it wasn't by happenstance that we got to this place where we don't have or we have this comfort and talking to you and giving you this feedback. And I think that if we go forward or if you are a leader who's been there, having that intentionality to building that redemption, where even people who were not there or who didn't experience, you know, what you went through, can appreciate looking back and saying like, oh, thank you grow, what you did that and that there's there's something about forgiveness, but also something about being a leader who's willing to accept the feedback, even if you've struggled getting that in the past and allowing that door, quote unquote, so be open. So that way you can start this process, but there is hard work ahead, not going to play that lightly. But you know, having that ability to to really understand that redemption is possible for any leader that could have misbehaved with our teams is just a sign of hope.

Jeff Ma
Well, I would call this experiment of success. Thank thank all of you for the trust in me to show up to a show without knowing what we're about to talk about but I really enjoyed it and Mohammad a special thank you for reliving one of your most I mean that that was painful to listen to. I can't imagine reading it. But also, this was enlightened. I think still to revisit these things and look at it through our lens now, because back then we didn't have our six pillars of love, we didn't have our, our love as a business strategy, we didn't have all this stuff and it's just amazing, amazing to go back and just relive it to this lens. I'm looking forward to doing this some more. So if I put some more podcast invites on your calendars with no context whatsoever, get ready to be called out because I'm gonna dig up some more dirt i'm gonna i'm going to coin a term for that a coin a phrase for this type of series, like digging up dirt or something, you know, and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna explore from here because I think this was really valuable for me. And I hope the listeners also got a taste of you know, something, they can take away something they can apply themselves. Hopefully, this was a moment that if you're hearing this, you can see some part of this in your life in you and around you that you can take away because that's what we like to do. We like to learn we like to share those learnings. So with that, thank you to my guests, my panel here and i'd love as a business strategy here where we're gonna be posting new episodes every Tuesday. Is there a you know a business topic you'd like to cover? If there's anything you'd like to hear? There's more about this revealing we send a copy of this fridge email, let us know at softway.com/LAABS and if you liked what you heard today, please do consider leaving a review. Tell a friend subscribe on Apple, Spotify, all those things and you know, share the love. So with that, we will see you all next week. Bye