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Episode 38:

LAABS: Remember when Jeff was a bad boss?

Continuing our trip down memory lane, we invited two project managers, Ashley and Erin, onto the show this week to revisit their experience with Jeff as their boss before he started his behavior transformation journey. It’s awkward but it’s good. Take a listen!

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Feel the love! We aren't experts - we're practitioners. With a passion that's a mix of equal parts strategy and love, we explore the human (and fun) side of work and business every week together.

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Jeff Ma
Host

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Ashley Vega
Associate Director

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Erin Pool
Associate Director

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Transcript

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Jeff Ma
Hey folks, mark your calendars because on April 27, we'll be launching our new book, which is of course titled, love as a business strategy. Visit LoveAsABusinessStrategy.com for more info, and sign up for a chance to get a free copy. And if you're interested in bringing love as a business strategy to your organization, we are now offering free mini sessions of our globally resonant Seneca Leaders training experience. These mini sessions dive into three topics to help begin transforming leadership behaviors and influencing culture for the better. Space is limited. So visit softway.com/events to learn more, and RSVP now, enjoy the show.

Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm a director at Softway. We're a business to employee solutions company that creates products and offers services that help build resilience and high performance company cultures. Every episode, we dive into one element of business or strategy and test our theory of love against it. And I'm trying something very different today. I'm joined today by two very special people in my life. We work together they are associate directors of the project management group, or we've worked together for very almost two to three years, depending on who you're talking about. And we have Miss Ashley Vega Hello, Ashley.

Ashley Vega
Hello!

Jeff Ma
And Erin Pool. Hey, Erin.

Erin Pool
Hey.

Jeff Ma
So if they look nervous, it's because they are. It's because yesterday, I called them up and said I need you to show up for a podcast. And so very little context. I understand what I've done to them. And I apologize.

Erin Pool
I accept your apology.

Jeff Ma
And we are going to try something because as we continue exploring stories and learnings and growth in our own lives, I want to do something for myself, I want to have a little selfish episode here today. I myself have gone through what I consider a very huge transformation in my own leadership and my own style, my understanding of culture over the last several years. And both of you are present for a good chunk of that learning in that growth. And I wanted to retro on that today. And I invited you to help me out give a little bit of perspective of because you knew me at a different time you knew me. Not that I've gotten anywhere, you know, incredibly, you know, perfect at this point at all. I'm still on that journey. But we're very close. Now. I think we work we've worked so long together that, you know, I've gotten a lot of feedback along the way you guys have helped me along my journey along the way. So wanted. I wanted to take some time and talk about that today. And that's why you're here. So surprise. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. I'm sweating this out. So I guess to kind of break the ice. I will do some icebreakers. And let let you guys warm up a little bit because I know podcasting can be nerve racking. So I'm gonna start with you, Ashley. Simple icebreaker question. What is something that you get embarrassed about that most people don't get embarrassed about?

Ashley Vega
That is hard. Jeff. Where's Maggie? Did she make this up?

Jeff Ma
She's back. She is listening. Laughing probably.

Ashley Vega
Something I get embarrassed about that other people probably don't?

Jeff Ma
Yes.

Ashley Vega
Probably my car's cleanliness. I'm very particular, about if my car has been washed when the last time it was washed with the last time that I cleaned out the interior probably comes from my mom growing up. I need to take care of it. I need to take care of it. So I'm always embarrassed if I haven't washed my car recently, which during pandemic times, has been I had to like cancel. I had a car wash membership had to cancel it. You know, and I'm just like, when's the last time I even wash my car?

Jeff Ma
That's a great answer.

Ashley Vega
I feel like I don't know why. Now it lives forever for everybody to know.

Jeff Ma
Erin, what is your go to comfort food?

Erin Pool
Hmm. I feel like well it used to be a very specific restaurant in Houston but i have since moved. The one in Houston was local it's called Local Foods and it's they have a really good egg truffled egg salad sandwich. It's so good. When i'm having a bad day i'm like that's my go to like stress eating and i love to stress eat, that's my thing, i love it it makes me feel better afterwards and people say it doesn't it does it makes me feel really good so i love eating this egg salad sandwich from Local Foods but normally now that i've moved from from that location it's it's just default back pizza. Pizza such a good comfort food and i haven't a bad day pizza makes everybody happy.

Jeff Ma
I agree with both of those and now i'm feeling very uncomfortable i've been just stalling because i realized only in this moment just how awkward this is to have an episode talking about myself so i'm going to actually ask if if maybe Ashley, you can start tell us a little bit about you and kind of context of you know you working with me at Softway and you know kind of give you a little background about yourself.

Ashley Vega
Sure. So i'm coming up on three years in june i think i started shortly after Erin did. Fun fact, Erin and I used to work together so that's pretty cool too. So I started, Jeff was my direct supervisor he's the one that did all my training and I came on came on as a project manager. Currently in role, I'm associate director of many things i think i do a lot of things right now working in the business development space and Jeff and I are also facilitators on our Seneca Leaders experience for leaders and training so that's kind of how we work together. I would say now in our world I, Jeff, you you're more of a mentor to me versus like a supervisor by supervisor roles and responsibilities as opposed to how when we originally started working together if that makes sense.

Jeff Ma
A lot of that is due to our own like structural changes within the organization of becoming more flat is like i don't feel like i'm anybody's boss anymore we just want we're all leaders in our own right right

Ashley Vega
well and a global pandemic that just kind of shook everything up.

Jeff Ma
Oh, right, that thing too. Erin, a little bit about you if you will please?

Erin Pool
I'm pretty similar to ashley been here for i think i just had my three year anniversary and and actually worked project manager too as well associate director now. Worked pretty closely with you Jeff. Not in the beginning but in 2019 we had a good run of working really closely together i think it was pretty vastly different from when I first started and you were definitely direct boss you know would go to you for any questions or so but at that point in time we didn't work very closely together or anything like that so had had a good run when we worked on a project together for about a year and say got a lot of good mentorship from you during that but that's different from when i first started for sure.

Jeff Ma
So to kind of set the stage and to for our conversation what i'm looking for today is brutal honesty which we're used to but just not normally with a camera on a podcast recording but but I want to go back in time a little bit. I you know just to set the context from my perspective three years ago roughly when you all joined I was in the midst of a lot of self awareness gaining I guess a lot of realizations about my own let me just I mean I thought I was a great leader I thought I was you know just kind of god's gift to you know mankind when it came to leadership and I thought I had it all figured out. I thought i knew everything and what i didn't know that i could always find out easily and thought everyone had something to learn from me i did but i didn't know that right like i didn't say that out loud to myself for anyone else, and what ended up happening was it just really affected, you know, looking back now, I see a lot of the ways that I definitely was not really helping, especially when it came to like actual outcomes from a business perspective, but also our culture. And so I really wanted to get some fresh perspective, there's not something we've talked at length about, you know, off air. So this would be, I thought it'd be a really interesting experiment, to come together and talk about it at length for the first time together. And I'm actually really nervous about it. So I guess I'll open with asking you all, what your impressions of me as a boss were three years ago, and I can take it. Any stories, or I mean, go for it. I'm too nervous. You guys take it.

Erin Pool
I feel like it was pretty interesting. You definitely seemed like, in the beginning, you know, like pretty hands off boss, you're, you know, you're the cool boss, just like, hey, do you need anything, just let me know, you know, like, I'm not going to play the, you know, watching your every move, and this and that. And so I was like, Okay, this is this is different from my past boss, too. So it felt refreshing at first, I still remember to have some of our trainings. And you were sitting down walking me through a PowerPoint presentation. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And you had like a list of them on on an Excel list of all the links to the these learn, like, education, spreadsheets, and stuff like that, or presentations. And you're like, Oh, well, do you just want to click through them? And like, let me know if you have any questions. And I was like, Yeah, actually, I thought this was perfect. And I can kind of learn on my own and, and write down questions and things like that. But I remember at that point, not actually really going back to you with that many questions. I was just kinda like, Okay, this makes sense. It's kind of basic stuff. But I do feel like that kind of set the stage a bit for not really coming back to you for a lot of questions. In my early learning, I got assigned to projects pretty early then right after that, and started forming relationships with a lot of other directors and leaders. And those are the individuals who I would typically always go to for questions. I remember Chris Pitre was the one who taught me how to submit an invoice for the first time, which was, I think, all who know, Chris Pitre would be very surprised that he was the one who taught me. But you know, I think that by, you know, having that hands off approach. I didn't, I didn't, yeah, start forming that relationship with you as much early on. And no, as as it progressed, and I started getting on other projects. I remember, point in time being like, I'm closer to the CEO, who I go and ask questions to multiple times a week than I do my own boss. You know, Jeff, I don't really ask him any questions. I don't really go to him for anything. So I think it kind of set the stage for that kind of relationship early on.

Jeff Ma
Thank you for sharing.

Ashley Vega
Was that painful, Jeff?

Jeff Ma
It was so bad. Yeah, I mean, like, it's all true. Hit me, hit me, hit me with the left hook. Ashley, go ahead.

Ashley Vega
So my experience of view, when I first started was that you were very busy. I thought, I saw that you were out, you were on a lot of projects, you were out a lot of tech projects. Your time was was hard to find, even for some of our initial trainings and things. And I remember that. I'm very tactical. So I was like, Is there a list? Like a check? When I start a project? Is there a checklist? And you're like, yeah, you know, but it's outdated. So you can you know, you can try this, you can do that. I'm like, Okay, and then I remember trying to like, learn project plans. And and you, you always take this like philosophical like, what if you? What if a half FTE does this? And what if we bring in a copywriter to do that, and you gave me this like scenario, and I remember thinking, I don't even know how to use this tool yet. And you want me like critical thinking about projects. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I'm gonna do my best here. Because I just, I thought, Man, I hope that I can do this job because when I came into this job, I didn't know a lot of the terminology. A lot of times you guys would say things. I felt very inadequate. I was like, Oh, I don't know what agile is like I'm going to fail at my job everybody's about agile but I don't know what it is not good like Google YouTube when we figure out what it is. But me like Erin, I felt like, we didn't get a lot of time upfront together didn't get to, I kind of learned on my own and eventually got put on like a program. And then I'm learning from other people who have been running programs, but it hadn't been done necessarily in that way before. So we kind of recreating things and doing things. And I also was, was going to Mohammad with, with all the things because he was very accessible to me. So I didn't feel like you were as accessible in that capacity as like a guide for me as an early PM, if that makes sense. Sorry, but I do think that our..

Jeff Ma
No, totally true.

Ashley Vega
But I do on the on the other end of that though, I felt like we, you took a vested interest in our one on ones to, like, get to know me as a human. And like, from that we've got a really great friendship and mentorship, dynamic going as well. I don't know if that was a left hook. But...

Jeff Ma
Well, I think what, what I do, so this is through my own introspection over all this time, and I continue. So my, what was going on during those times, from my perspective was number one, like big ego. So number one, thinking that my time was extra valuable that I had something to offer to everyone. And also really transform kind of playing mind games, if you will, really painting a picture like I'm, you know, busier than I am, or kind of having this open door policy where I'm like, I'm the cool boss. So if you need, you know, if you need anything, my doors open, but I'm gonna let you free, I'm gonna, like let you fly, and let's just spread your wings, you know, don't be afraid to fail, I'm right here. But the reality is, and maybe you guys experienced this was that, you know, I'm not actually there. And I knew that because no one ever came to my door, my quote unquote, open door, I left it, quote, unquote, open. And then you know, the fact that nobody stepped through and like you both mentioned, you both turn to Mohammad, who, you know, by hierarchy is above me for support help. And he would like he set an example of what supporting actually looked like because you guys were willing to go, he felt accessible, he was actually there to support he would check in, I just checked out, you know, and, and I framed that time period of me being just so you know, such a cool boss. And so I look back, though, and I'm really, really kind of frustrated, embarrassed about just how, how much I really, actually, I can think of besides you two other people who are not on this show today, many people that I definitely harmed through that behavior, like not just didn't help, but harmed and hurt their confidence hurt their understanding their careers, to be honest, based on how I how I, you know, lead them. So So yeah, that's me. That's been, I share that not because, you know, this is kind of like the truth that I've come to understand better. But I've yet to go back and really seek that perspective and feedback from from people. And a lot of those people aren't, you know, at Softway anymore, it's just a long time ago. And so, you two are actually two of the most kind of senior in terms of experience with me. And so, do you guys have any, like, specific recollection now that you heard me like, where my mindset is coming from? Does that spark any thing that you remember me doing, saying or kind of leaving you in that space during that time? I'd love to be reminded of it.

Ashley Vega
I have a story, but I don't think I've ever shared it with you. So, sorry in advance.

Jeff Ma
This is I asked for this.

Ashley Vega
So there was a point in time. Not like when I had just started probably further in I think I was a senior project manager at this point. Or I was doing a lot of training of new hires. We had quite a bit of growth. We had just hired a bunch of people. I know Erin was was working with some I was working with some and I had recently taken on a program a larger project and i was also working with i think three individuals that i was training that were new and kind of in the inception of their journey here at Softway but um i remember somebody came to me and said hey what's the plan for this new hire i was like what new hire what are you talking about and i because i was the one that they would come to because i was doing a lot of that initial training and there it was probably HR wanting to set some stuff up and i i was feeling really overwhelmed at the time i had a lot on my plate i was having trouble kind of balancing all of the things and so when i got noticed of this like new hire like got really emotional about it and i reached out to jeff and first i made like a whole plan i was like alright i need to plan for this person let me figure out what i need to do like what what's their name who are they how do i how do i fit them into my schedule next week all the things and i reached out to jeff and i was like hey there's a new person starting question mark kind of thing it was via chat took you a while to respond but you were just kind of like nonchalant like yeah you know such and such they were higher from this and that and i was like okay i would just kind of left it for a while and i was increasingly getting more and more emotional about it like i don't know how i'm going to do this like how am i going to juggle four people and my workload and etc and eventually we got to the point where jeff like no no like you're not you're not going to do anything with this person i was like oh what's the plan and you basically didn't have a plan i'm not going to name the person you didn't have a plan for this person it was kind of thrust upon you for whatever reason and i i think that i like i remember i went to two of my co workers and i like had like a little breakdown because i was like cool like jeff is giving me more work he didn't communicate it with me he didn't like all these things and thoughts in my head and it basically came down to if i had a different relationship with you at that point i would have come to you immediately and been like hey what's the deal with this that kind of thing but i you're not you weren't really communicating overly well at that point i guess and so i was like well this is just the thing it is what it is i'm gonna i'm gonna work through it and had my little breakdown went back to you kind of confronted you about it and you were like no no no like i wouldn't do that to you and i was like okay but essentially what i'm talking through is like your communication at that time and with all of these new hires i was kind of working on developing the training program for these new hires that were coming through because we were still growing and i was like well i guess i've got another thing on my plate and it was really crappy.

Jeff Ma
i remember that and yeah we haven't talked about that ever so thank you for sharing i do remember that and i never i appreciate you say that because i never even came to terms to this point with like the emotional kind of toll that took on you because during that time i was just basically being apathetic at that time i was kind of convincing myself that i could behave this way because i had enough on my plate to worry about or you know other things i would tell myself which really weren't you know i remember your plate during that time and if we were to compare plates there was no comparisons for like to be your you know leader or manager and to kind of just drop all that on you was a somewhat you know looking back kind of intentional kind of move there's a point where i'm just like intentionally saying you know what there's enough going on for everyone so let's just let her handle it or let her figure out which is you know messed up so that was quite some time ago but i do apologize for having put you through that for sure.

Ashley Vega
Well, you apologized too, but we hadn't really talked about it like you said so i just didn't feel good you know yeah i got okay we'll figure it out i guess and i love training so i didn't i also didn't want to come off as like not wanting to be a part of the training stuff because like i really like it but it wasn't sustainable.

Jeff Ma
And i think what what i tried to do since those times because a lot has changed over time in myself in our organization all these things but personally on my journey one of the things that was missing back then was that personal relationship was how you would you and everyone would feel like i was like on this island at times like i said you guys would go to Mohammad about like a layer above around me you'd have to work in ways that had to go around me essentially like because you knew i was this immovable kind of like apathetic rock in the middle of all this and keep in mind at the same time like my job description included like supporting you and helping you and like being a part of it and i just created all this extra these extra steps to make that happen rather than us being able to come together and talk about what's needed and what i what needed to happen it always ended up being i would hear from Mohammad what was going on in your world and being asked why i wasn't on top of what was going on your world why wasn't supporting and i'd be like well they didn't come to me with you know like making excuses that you know no one can do me and at the time we weren't yet going through this i wasn't going through this journey yet and and i missed out on a lot of opportunities to like build that that trust during that time that's one of the biggest things, beyond that because of what i'd already kind of created i was unwilling it took me the longest time and i'm still working on it to start getting down that road where i can actually kind of repair that as well because once it's gotten to that point it's not just a matter of all of a sudden now we trust each other like it requires a level of forgiveness and things like that i was comfortable inviting you two on the show because my impression is that there has been like repair and forgiveness since that time from the two of you it helps that i mean in my journey i've learned a lot directly from you two in so many different ways. like ashley when you were training those you know many multitude of new hires like that that taught me how people should be trained to be honest and at the time i'd make it look like i knew how they should be trained and you know like i was all very confident in that but i learned that more from you amongst other things and Erin your style of like like managing and being on top of things was something that i found almost like threatening to start with because you were just on top of the game and in my mind i had to be stronger i had to be better i had to be the leader i couldn't be any lesser than and and today i definitely know that you are we have a joke where you keep calling me boss because we know that well...

Erin Pool
no no it's kind of a funny joke now and i was thinking about this like reflecting on the beginning time and i mean we weren't we weren't talking shit about you jeff but we i think there was a point in time where as PMs said like we also were like now jeff doesn't really feel like our boss because you just weren't there you know and i think there's that point in time you know it comes down to support you know when a lot of us were really just starting out learning and things like that it felt like yeah we didn't have the support and we've found it in a lot of different areas and so yeah we were talking about we're like i don't know where jeff is you know i think ashley touched on it and you're just really busy and you know we'd see you for a second you kind of check in like hey guys and you know make a joke and we'd be like you know and then we'd like not see you again and it was a joke doesn't really feel like our boss and where's jeff and you know we found that support in and other people which i think when i began training people i almost went to the complete opposite end of the spectrum and was quite a bit micromanaging in the beginning of my training others because i didn't want them to just feel like they didn't you know have have someone there so i almost was a little too there and complete opposite end of the spectrum there but yeah for me it all drilled down to support and we talked about that with the servant leadership a lot too and and being that individuals to really help and lift others.

Ashley Vega
i think jeff too there was a point where like you called yourself like an apathetic would you say block you i felt like when we did come to you i'm speaking when i came to you i felt like you also could be super indecisive like you didn't make decisions you always went to Mohammad anyway So it was like, Well, I'm just gonna skip that. We're just gonna go get the answer we need, you know. So sorry about that. But and I didn't mean to apologize. But I definitely from an efficiency sake, and erin's nickname is efficiency Erin, so I'm sure she did the same thing would just go and get the answers we needed because you didn't actually make decisions. I don't know if that was being risk averse. Or if you didn't want the liability of the decision making, I'm not sure where that came from. But that was my impression also that you weren't really big at making decisions about which way we should go in scenarios.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, there's definitely more apathy in the form of just, you know, you could call it indecisiveness, but also just like not not wanting to actually put the work in to make decisions, like decisions don't just come, you have to actually like, think critically take the time and sit down and work with it to understand it is much easier to just be like, Well, you know what, let me just kind of kick it down the road. So that's what that was.

Ashley Vega
That's what you used to tell me, he used to say, I don't have the you told me this more than once. He said, I don't have the capacity in my brain to keep up and understand all of the little details and nuances of projects, every time I come back to a project I have to relearn it and re re re remember what was going on with it. And he always told me you like you just always know what's going on with all of them. I always thought that was interesting, because I don't even think that you need to know all the little details sometimes to help guide and support individuals and some of the decision making.

Jeff Ma
That's a mind game. That's me, that's me. Kind of boosting you up so that I can not have to take ownership of something, to be honest. So I mean, these are all everything you're saying are things that like, to be honest, I'm still working through, I'm still trying to get better about my awareness is higher, but I'm still guilty of most of these things. I am actually curious, I'll ask and you don't have to, again, sugar coat or apologize. But today is is any of that improved? Or better by your perception? And if so, why? Or what do you see has changed? for you personally?

Erin Pool
I think for me, it definitely has changed. And, uh, you know, I know that when I have problems or big decisions that I'm making Jeff, you know, I come to you with those, even though you say, Oh, I'm not really your boss anymore. Like, I, I thrust that, that journey for us, still. But I, I think also that happened because we did work so closely together on a previous project for about a year. And we built that relationship, but I saw you really try and always be that person to answer actually my project management questions, then you help me strategize and think differently and improve on where, you know, I needed improvement, which is not what I saw from you, in the very beginning, when I feel like I drastically needed improvement, or somebody pointing out where I could improve. To set me up for success. So I saw you do that. Yeah, starting in 2019. And especially when we work really, really closely.

Ashley Vega
For me, I think I remember sitting somewhere in Canada with you, and you kind of introspecting on your role with the project managers, and how you didn't feel like you could really help them and what that meant for you as a boss. Like I remember you having like this moment of introspection, then. And then coming to today, I think that you, you offer a lot more transparency and honesty and where you are today. Like even just the other day, you're like, no, I own that I should have done this. It was I was doing this, I think that you're much more aware of where you sit, and how you're reacting and interacting with the people around you. And I think that helps foster better relationships and trust among the team members, including myself, so I know that I appreciate that and it makes me feel like I can do that with others because you do that even though it can be hard to do.

Erin Pool
You also have a lot more face time with people. I it drastically different I think within my first six months I had like a serious other than our training, which as we already discussed was partially just saying hey, here's a spreadsheet of links, go go take a look at those. But I think we had like one serious sit down one on one I think maybe like three months or six After I joined, but I had one pretty shortly with Mohammad, our CEO as well. So it felt just as often, you know, I was having serious conversations with, you know, my trajectory where I was going, what I need to improve on with, you know, our CEO as I was with you in the beginning, but I think that has also drastically changed. You're constantly having one on ones with a lot of individuals on our project management team and providing that help and support, even if, you know, we don't really have any newbies anymore on our team, but you are still providing that support that everybody constantly needs to get better. No matter where you are, you know, in the chain.

Ashley Vega
I think to over this last year, the three of us have been able to work really closely closely together on a lot of different things. And I, I feel very empowered by you, Jeff to like, go off and, you know, figure out what we need to do make decisions. You know, even if it's, I remember specifically one, like, let's just create a new policy and Erin's like, yeah, let's make make a new policy. Just like, I support you. Go do it. And we did. So I just think that's awesome. You don't get that from a lot of bosses, either, often.

Jeff Ma
Really? I really get this question because it's really awkward to hear compliments for myself, I actually don't, I don't know how to take those. But I do appreciate you sharing because, like, what I was trying to get out was what you perceive as like, what made the difference. And I got I got that perspective. I I it's a good reminder for me to keep working on those things that you're saying. Making the time for people building those relationships because I mean, for me personally, the biggest difference the most tangible difference for me is just how I even view like for instance, both of you used to be like a position or role a project and a liability at times or it's like I would get frustrated with not just you but anybody like why can't we Why are we making these mistakes? Why are we you know, that was like the numbers the dots and the lines drawn through my head. And today I definitely definitely see both as people first your personalities first your lives, friends really first before anything else and then when we work together, so it to me personally makes a huge huge difference because I have way more like I don't say I have an open door but it feels like I see you guys at my door more often. Just because and I really appreciate that and so I think a big part of it for me as a as trying to grow through this was that grace that you both offered me as I tried to change and you like you were willing to take the time to work with me on it and like look past your kind of set notions or things that I've done in the past and you were willing to kind of work with me through it and I that that made a huge difference because I don't think I could have you know made any progress if you know you you you weren't willing to kind of go out of your way to work with me and forgive me so that was a huge part for me from you guys. Look at the time so i hope i mean there's so much more actually want to dig in we'll probably talk some more after this stops recording but thanks for joining me on this experiment I know Erin you're saying your hands Your hands are sweating for like 30 minutes leading up to this you have no idea what's going on. This is not Erin's comfort zone as a special to Erin she does not like being on film or recording. Thank you. But I overall thank you both of you for sure for this kind of trip down memory lane. And I think you guys may have sugarcoated some things, Ashley kept apologizing to me for things that are three years ago. So that's cool. Sorry, not sorry, but but this was fun and I think this kind of opens up my mind to like do this more often actually, you know, obviously not always recorded on a podcast but I think there's a lot more to be learned from kind of retro-ing on the past here. So definitely a great learning for me. Hopefully there's value for listeners as well. So that let us know if you like this type of format if you like what we did and what we talked about here. It was definitely super, super weird and awkward for all three of us. So if you like more of that you have to let us know because we might not do it again. We are aiming to post new episodes every Tuesday and if again if you have feedback for us if you like this please do let us know at softway.com/LAABS and please do leave a review, subscribe Apple, Spotify and share with a friend because we really have this passion for what we talk about what we want to share with the world and what we want to continue growing in and hopefully it helps you out. So with that, thank you, Ashley. Thank you, Erin. We will talk again very soon and we will see you next week.

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