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Episode 49:

LAABS: Remember when Frank missed that meeting? 

This week we're throwing it back a few years to air out some more of our dirty laundry. We don't want to give it all away, but we will say there was yelling involved. Find out what happened in this classic look at Softway's history.

Speakers

Feel the love! We aren't experts - we're practitioners. With a passion that's a mix of equal parts strategy and love, we explore the human (and fun) side of work and business every week together.

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Jeff Ma
Host

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MohProfile

Mohammad Anwar
President

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ChrisProfile

Chris Pitre
Vice President

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Frank Danna
Director

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Transcript

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Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm a director at Softway a business employs solutions company that creates products and offers services that help build resilience and high performance company cultures. I'm joined today as usual by our president ceo, Mohammad Anwar. Hey, Moh. Hey guys. Vice President Chris Pitre Hey, Chris. And director Frank Danna. I bring him on.

Frank Danna
Hey Mohammad, And Jeff and Chris and Jeff and Chris is fine.

Jeff Ma
Well, you know, it's appropriate because I've assembled us for a reason. We're going to we're going to do another ad hoc, deep dive, if you will, into the history of Softway. And today, our focus will be on yet another one of our favorite stories that has played out. And we're going to flashback to a little incident. We haven't named this incident yet, you guys. We should probably give it a formal name, you know, so that people know. But this is an incident that involved Mohammad Frank, at a meeting that was that Frank didn't wasn't there for it was late to was not there. So I will. I think we all know what I'm talking about now, at least on our site here, and we're about to share that story. And I think, again, the objective of this for us is to have some fun with it, a little trip down memory lane, but also kind of talk about how that what that meant to us in terms of, of culture, our learnings and our personal growth, things like that. Just sharing those moments together here. So Frank, I think it's appropriate for you, if you will, to kind of set up what this story is what happened because the story is really centered around this is your story. So

Frank Danna
yes..Mohammad, So it was a it was a it was a beautiful, I think it was either spring or summer time, I can't remember which, which time we did what we started, the sun was shining, the birds were singing. And I was sitting in my office, just doing deep work, you know what I'm saying? And you know, you get in those zones, those moments where it's sort of like precious, where you're able to just knock a bunch of stuff out and get stuff done. no distractions at all, like nothing is in your way. And I was sitting there working, and all of a sudden, I see Mohammad barreling towards my office. And I'm like,

Mohammad Anwar
yeah, you know, so you're able to see me walk,

Frank Danna
watching him power walk over, bus the door open and start yelling, like,like yelling. And this is I've known mo for a long time, like since I was 18. And he's never ever yelled at me like period in this capacity on top of that, and I could feel like the energy of the office. I could feel the people because our walls were paper thin. They were barely even walls. But I could I could feel people like leaning towards hearing what Mohammad is saying and yelling, expletives, all sorts of stuff. And then what people saw after that is Mohammad triumphantly walking out of the room, and me doing this Charlie Brown style walk directly behind him like a sad puppy directly into the meeting room.

Jeff Ma
Wow.Okay, well, thought we're gonna keep it live. But Frank, you know, Frank, just like lay it out there. Okay, well,

Mohammad Anwar
can I can I just share my side of the story.

Frank Danna
You share your silence. I just wanted to paint that picture. wanted to get everybody like feeling what I felt. That's what

Chris Pitre
I'm feeling it,

Frank Danna
you felt it, Chris. Okay, good.

Chris Pitre
Picking up what you're putting down.

Mohammad Anwar
So what led to that was a we had a meeting that I had scheduled, I think the morning off for all my directors. Yeah, we have. We have we Yeah. So I think I'll just complain like, back in the day I used to schedule ad hoc meetings. Whenever I wanted, I would be like, Hey, guys, you're gonna have a meeting. We didn't like have a scheduled recurring meeting or anything. I was just I woke up that morning. And I felt like I need to have a meeting with my directors. So I started the meeting for the afternoon. And our office, we have this tendency of showing up late to meetings. And so I'm sitting there waiting for all my leaders to show up to the meeting room. And slowly everybody starts rolling in 10 minutes into the meeting, and I'm looking around to see if you have attendance for everyone. And Frank is missing of the room. So I obviously was irritated. And I actually began to ask people in the room where the hell is Frank? And everybody was like, I don't know. I don't know. And like nobody wanted to like kind of respond or take ownership of Frank's situation, I guess. Yeah.

Jeff Ma
A quick pause, a quick pause for context. Just , what year what year was this? Like, what was 2016? Right. So that's just to make sure this wasn't last week. So make sure everyone? This was a while back ago. So that's why we're laughing about it. Go ahead. And I'm sorry, keep going.

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah. So I, I began to ask people very frank, and nobody was able to tell me where he was. And I sat there, I was just waiting, hoping Frank would show up. And I had made up in my mind that I'm going to yell at him, as soon as he walks in, whenever he did. And so I read it, and Frank didn't show up. So I started actually yelling about Frank in front of everyone. And I'm laughing about it. But looking back at it was actually not good. What I did, but I started talking about Frank to the room, and started saying things like, you know, Frank's always late, there's no sense of discipline. You know, he doesn't show up to meetings on time. And I just started to like this barrages character as a way to vent. I tried that, and it still didn't work, because, Frank still did not show up.

Frank Danna
Maybe if I talked a lot about the feeling, you'll feel it, and he'll just gravitate towards the room and be like, you're talking about me.

Mohammad Anwar
You know, the best part, Frank was everybody was acknowledging me

Chris Pitre
that I would challenge that silence. And that situation was compliance, but it was not agreement.

Mohammad Anwar
That's fair like you guys are agreeing with everything I had to say.

Chris Pitre
In that moment, yeah. Your mood? Do you think that anybody was gonna do anything contrary or? Like, sorry, Frank, you were assassinated in that room, and there was nobody willing to take that bullet for you.

Frank Danna
You know what? Some of it may have been true. So.

Mohammad Anwar
So So I guess, I think 15 minutes going to the meeting, and we're like, Okay, this is a one hour meeting and 15 minutes, and Frank is in here. And I'm done. I'm not going to sit and wait for this guy anymore. So I decided I'm going to waltz into his office and go get him. And that's how I remember me barging into your office. I do remember yelling at you. Oh, yeah. I gotta remember yelling at you. And I do remember as walking to your office. I saw you see me through the window. Yeah, we made eye contact. And you're probably like, if you walk into my room when I was walking to your room, you know, that was angry. For sure.

Frank Danna
There's that thing that happens in Spain, where the bulls chase people down the streets. It's kind of how I when I saw you, I was like, Oh, no.

Mohammad Anwar
anyways, so I walked into the room. And I remember I do remember it cursing. And I think I was definitely yelling.

Chris Pitre
call those specific words that were used budget.

Mohammad Anwar
Probably not safe for this podcast

Frank Danna
I've got them written down here. I'm just kidding.

Mohammad Anwar
So I basically I've been to the effect every now I don't know the verbatim but it was essentially like Why the hell are you not in this meeting that you're supposed to be in? And all I remember is like I didn't get a chance to frankly even respond. I literally just was the only one speaking and or yelling. And I essentially go and get your get your behind out of the chair and let's go to the meeting right now. That's what I just don't want to say it but a synonym

Frank Danna
but then I Charlie Brown walked said walked in, sat down and very our producer executive Maggie is saying badonkadonk is another word and I'm sure that Mohammad said badonkadonk.

Mohammad Anwar
I can't even if pronunciate it. badonkadonk?

Frank Danna
we're picking this entire podcast. Go ahead, Mohammad say it one more time.

Mohammad Anwar
badonkadonk?

Frank Danna
close enough. So I go there meeting and and i'm not contributing. I'm just trying not to cry. Basically. I'm just sitting there. And I'm just like, and that was the meeting ended, right.

Jeff Ma
I remember I remember that meeting. Actually. I do remember the frustration. I remember Mohammad, to be honest, the way you were positioning it like while waiting for Frank. It felt like very justified. Like I wasn't like the sense that people agreed with you came from kind of being like, like, we need to be more like, Why are leaders not discipline? Why can't we come to things on time? And to me, I'm like, I'm pretty sure Frank's I might even said is I'm like I think I saw Frank in his office like, like, literally just, yeah, why is it? I'm like, Why isn't he here? I mean, we're all here. Why is he so it's kind of like rallying

Frank Danna
the rally against.

Chris Pitre
And I don't recall the meeting. But I do recall the surprise Mohammad meetings that were like, sitting on top of other things, or, you know, you would think, you know, in logical terms like, Oh, this is this is a last minute meeting, perhaps I should go with the previously scheduled meeting and get the updates for this newly scheduled meeting. But that wasn't you know, how it went down. You got yanked out of meetings if you were sort of summoned by Mohammad in those days. And so like you'd be in the middle of presenting something or trying to get team to line up. I need you to go over to this other room. Oh, oh, I guess I gotta go. You guys. I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't, I don't know if I'm gonna be back. Yeah, I'm sorry. I gotta go.

Frank Danna
He just, he pops up his laptop. And he's like.

Mohammad Anwar
I, I do remember, like I, after Frank made it into the room, I had to collect my emotional emotions and like, go into the meeting. Whatever it is, I don't remember the agenda. I don't even know why code for the meeting. It's too long. But I do remember every minute of yelling at Frank and getting him into the room, or yelling about Frank, and then getting him into the room. But once we got done with the meeting, you know, a few hours later, I saw an invitation for a one on one pop up on my, you know, email, or invite request from Frank. And in that very moment, I started to get this feeling that Oh, crap. I think I did it again. I was like, Oh, crap, I think I must have done something wrong or must have misbehaved because it was 2016. I think it was the start of my journey of realizing a lot of my behaviors. And as soon as a meeting popped up, I was like, Okay, I'm pretty sure Frank is upset. And he booked it for the next day. And he booked it in this corner, most office like literally the last office Office Suite, we had a pretty big office suite. And we had this executive thing that had been abandoned since 2015. And he booked one of the corner most offices usually that was the room where if there was a performance related issue, or some kind of a crucial conversation to be had, that was the room we would use. And so he booked that room. And so when I saw the meeting room that was booked, I was like, oh crap. We began I began to like contemplate or think through like maybe Frank is upset enough to resign from that incident because I reflected on oh my gosh, I think I was was really harsh on them and so it wasn't the first time that somebody had resigned because of me yelling at them so that's kind of what what happened that day i don't know frank what were you thinking when you were sending me the invite or whatever i don't know if you had anything to share but why you booked that room but that's how i felt

Frank Danna
yeah my thought was like this is no one can hear you scream all the way back there and no but i actually i did i wanted it to be something that was that was purposefully faraway so we could have a conversation so again walls are paper thin you know so i was like well if there's at least 10 walls between us and the bullpen where everybody sits that would be helpful you know what i mean so i think that was really the intent behind it is just that let's let's meet in a place that's nondescript that's a little bit is you know ghost town is a good word for it

Chris Pitre
so timeout i just want to speak to the listeners this is actually the worst strategy if you feel like you can be victimized you want as many witnesses as possible you want to keep that meeting as close to your shot of others in case there's a need for intervention so just putting it out there i just won't be responsible have a platform

Frank Danna
did the wrong thing that's actually that's great advice i did not even i was like hey let's just make it an intimate discussion let's have a conversation about it Chris is like no make sure people can hear

Mohammad Anwar
okay

Jeff Ma
anyways i think i think so that that follow up meeting i think is what makes this story live in infamy even more so than the the previous transgression so tell us about that

Frank Danna
yeah so i i was just gonna say like i purposefully i scheduled it and i purposely got there on time two or three minutes, two or three minutes early but when i got there i had two things with me i had a notebook and i had my computer and Mohammad but i want you to tell a little bit and then we'll we'll add to the story

Mohammad Anwar
so ultimately i showed up and i won't lie i think i was late to this meeting by a few minutes i walked into the room and i essentially saw Frank having a notebook and it was open it was already open and there was things written on it and his laptop was there as well but it was closed and so i sat down and i was already already very anxious because i was expecting a resignation so i went in there already prepared to kind of like calm the situation down and i know even before Frank could begin to speak i started justifying what happened what had happened yesterday and if i don't if i'm not wrong i started blaming my other directors to brag whoa

Frank Danna
i said nothing Chris i'm kidding he was blamed there was blame

Mohammad Anwar
it was blamed but it was not Frank this time around i was blaming every one of the leaders for coming late and i was like you know Frank you know people don't ever show up on time and they don't show up on time and the meeting already people are coming in late and i was already pissed and when i didn't see you you know that's why i was already pissed but it wasn't necessarily your fault was everyone's fault and like i tried to like kind of like do whatever i could to justify my actions and the previous day and i wasn't apologizing i will tell you i did not apologize all i was trying to do was justify why i had yelled at frank yeah and i remember frank was just listening and he just said something to the effect of like Mohammad can i speak now or something i don't remember like shut up you will

Frank Danna
have something to say i'd like to share something with you and and you know your boy can i say your boy in his pocket your boy does not like conflict i'm not i'm a conflict averse person and so scheduling a meeting with Mohammad was stressful enough scheduling at the farthest place in the office according to Chris is not a smart move and at the same time i had written down what i wanted to say to him so i could be as clear as possible because when i was sitting there in front of him i was shaking like physically shaking that my hands were shaking my body was shaking like i was like when you're very very cold i was sitting there like this like shaking in in this dramatic fashion because i literally was was afraid to say what i wanted to say but i knew i had to say something and so i began reading what i had what i had written into the notebook and and i had base i started telling Mohammad that you know i did not appreciate being spoken to like that i didn't i said that i really i felt that it was unfair for him to yell and that the words that he used were very unkind and very hurtful and i began to share that with him directly but i use the notebook because i know if i wouldn't have had that in front of me with the stuff written down on it i would have jumbled up my what i had to say to him in a way that really wouldn't have been beneficial but i began to tell Mohammad how that interaction made me feel

Mohammad Anwar
yeah and he was shivering i didn't notice that but when he delivered his you know how he felt in the moment i started to feel this sense of shame and guilt it's easy to talk about it now but i think i was very embarrassed but so i did ultimately apologize

Frank Danna
yeah i remember specifically you said you kind of like almost almost mentally tossed out the excuses and you were like frank i'm sorry i should not have treated you like that like you kind of got rid of all the other stuff that was sort of clouding what you would what you were trying to say and just said

Mohammad Anwar
yeah i was essentially kind of justify my behavior from from from mistakes of others right like that's essentially what i was doing yeah but when you shared your loving you told me how you felt in the moment i realize okay crap like i just need to apologize but then Frank accepts the apology and then he says Mohammad i have one more thing i want to share with you and i was like okay and he began to open up his laptop and he turned it around to me and showed me the detail of the calendar invite from the previous day or the meeting and he showed me that i had actually forgotten to invite Frank, his name was not even on the invite list and i was at that moment in time like no idea guys i was i was already embarrassed and i went into like even more embarrassment because i was like oh my gosh i can't believe this like this whole incident played itself out not because Frank was late but because i had forgotten to invite Frank and i had just misbehaved in ways that even if it was his fault i shouldn't have but now looking at it this is all my fault and i misbehave and cheated Frank this way and it was this like a double whammy for me in the moment and i was like in the moment i was like oh my gosh like i have to do something about my behaviors because this i was also like surprised that he did not resign despite all of this but in a moment that was what was like i immediately went into the stage of like oh crap like i got it like stop this i can't keep going on like this i can't behave like this anymore but i do remember like Frank didn't just leave it there and let me feel bad like he did a good job of also like consoling me i he's the one who got victimized with all of these behaviors but at the end of the meeting i wasn't the one consoling him he was one consoling telling you hey don't worry about it it's okay and like you know like i was i mean i don't know if i do want to talk about that like

Frank Danna
i do i do because i think that's that's the point what i was doing was i was giving you feedback and i had never intended to quit i was not going to resign because here's the thing like this was a few months into your journey right we had you had gone to the to that big houston football game right the UH game you had we'd gone to San francisco and we'd kind of experience other cultures we started to kind of get into this you had started to become and share with me and many other people that you were going to make mistakes but you were trying to become a better leader and you would step into this journey of servant leadership or live leadership or whatever we're going to call it but essentially like in that moment you were trying and you made a mistake and so it was my responsibility even though i felt like i was going to throw up on everything to tell you what i needed to tell you because i care about you and because you You had asked us to hold you accountable. You had said, when I mess makeup, mess up and make mistakes, please, please. Like, like, treat me as a person, like, tell me what I'm doing wrong, show me how I can improve. And I took that to heart. You know, and and so in that moment, I wanted to make sure that you, you were able to receive feedback in this way, like just from someone who you've known for such a long time. And I wanted to make sure that it was actionable like that, you can see clearly what that looked like. And I was not willing to give up on you. So that was the reason why I had taken that time to write down my thoughts and to communicate in the way I wanted to and did was because you, as a leader had said, I need help here. And the last thing I wanted to do in that moment was not help you and not help continue to move this transformation forward. And support you in that. So that was really the intent.

Mohammad Anwar
Now I appreciate it. I yeah, no, that was a no matter how embarrassing embarrassed I was, and how I felt like Frank did a really good job of, like, making sure I walked out of that meeting not like, like, I think I think not feeling as guilty or, or not, you know, going into self condemnation, because that was also very common for me. Like when I do realize that I did something wrong, I shut down. And I the white people because I wasn't able to forgive myself. And I did that a lot to myself. And in the moment. I I know Frank, the way he reached out to me the way he gave me that olive branch to help help me. He also left me feeling confident that, okay, I made a mistake, but I can get better. So that was very helpful. And I don't know, how many leaders out there have that benefit or opportunity of having, you know, people who report to them hold them accountable this way. But for me, that was definitely a gift. And I I even tell now like, like, remember that story every now and then me and Frank will joke about it. We all jokeabout it.

Frank Danna
We, we can joke about it. That's the best part is like,

Jeff Ma
to this day, if any, if anybody like is late or the show to a meeting, we ask them, How did you make sure they run?

Frank Danna
And sometimes they weren't? Like, legitimately it happens. It's not just you blaming me for this

Chris Pitre
Chris? like can we can we also just add that when someone is left off of a meeting invite it typically is Frank even to this day?

Mohammad Anwar
Actually, I To be honest, recently it's been JJ

Frank Danna
right. It's just it's kind of it's going around? Yes, I have been I have been accidentally uninvited to or not invited period to meetings. And it was actually last week, there was one that one of our team members. me though it wasn't me. Hey, where are you at? And I was like, Where am I at? I'm in? I'm in my house. And they're like, no, there's a meeting happening right now I go to my calendar, of course. Okay, send me the link, send me this.

Chris Pitre
Which is a true measure of forgiveness is like when it happens again. How do you respond? And Frank does Oh, it's fine. I just show up five minutes late.

Frank Danna
It's okay.

Jeff Ma
I think I think I know Chris and I weren't like, we were in the meeting room where this happened. But we definitely were not in the room at the end of the hall, when, when the that the other part played, played down. But this is this is still a story that I think is just ingrained in Softway kind of lower. Because, again, one of the things that we talk about a lot is our transformation as a business but also oftentimes Mohammad, you're at the center of that conversation, we talk a lot about, like Mo 1.0, if you will only you know, as we're always upgrading ourselves and becoming better versions of ourselves, we always reference kind of 2015 or pre 2016 Mohammad, as like a version of you that was undergoing a lot of change, but from a place of, you know, like more of a temper more of a, you know, different approach, very heavy handed approach to leadership and very, a lot a lot of elements we talked about as a theme. But this story is a great I like this story so much because I know you know, I know Frank very well as well at this point. And, you know, the the the courage of that story doesn't always come through in this I guess, you know, we know each other so well. I kind of wanted to highlight it for this for this purposes, like just understanding Frank as a person Frank's are very good I mean, nothing is embarrassing here, but you're very kind hearted person you're very, you're someone who wants to make everybody happy. You want everyone to get along, and you're very, you just have a great heart. But it also makes situations like that just incorrect. I just know you even to this day, that's not something easy to do. Not much less for anybody, not Mohammad, you know, is one thing, but you wouldn't, that'd be hard for it. And I think, I think that story is always inspiring to me, because I think it spoke volumes to what a culture is capable of bringing out of us. I know, our culture wasn't there yet at that time, but the alignment that we'd already started building around what kind of culture we wanted to have. And the commitment to that journey really played out in a space where people were being very human making very human mistakes, like Mohammad did. But also Frank, you having the ability to not be petty about it not be I mean, you had every right the moment he even, you know, you could have just sent him a text said, like, I was never invited, you know, flipping the bird and like, walk out the door or whatever, like you had all these types of outcomes, but you chose to make it an opportunity to help Mohammad through that. And that's, that's amazing to me, because I, it just takes it takes something really special to happen in that space. And we treasure this story as funny. As much as we make fun of Mohammad about it. We make fun of about it, because it's a story that's definitely in, in our Chronicles, right? It's like it's locked, it's locked away in the vault, because that's really, that's really just I love it. It's like, it's like this fable now that that was a true story. But it's such a fun, like contrast to like some things that we I think we find somewhat natural or more natural now that we're not perfect. But we have these types of little, holding each other accountable, and little moments of trying to help each other through mistakes, like more often now, like I feel like it's it's, it's not perfect, but you know, that that's where like courage becomes easy. Now courage becomes easier with what what we were able to build through that.

Frank Danna
That's what I get. It's way less of an event. Right. And I think like there was there was this this pomp and circumstance of like, let me book a room in the farthest part of the galaxy. Let me like bring a notebook to make sure I don't mess anything up, let me have this tablet laptop that I can open up in points, like there was this there was this kind of this, this extra layer of coordination that had to be done. But as you get to a point where number one relationships are better, but also when your culture is more closely tied to feedback being part of just your everyday interactions, you don't have to have that pomp and circumstance like that it doesn't become an event, it becomes a natural part of your discussions with each other. And you can move past it much faster, as a result of it kind of getting better. So anyway, that's that we're looking at 2016. And now that 2021 the difference in terms of how long it would take for me to give you that same type of feedback. It's huge.

Jeff Ma
Oh, just a few weeks ago, Mohammad texted me in the morning says, Hey, I have some feedback for you. That when you get a chance, and look at his calendar, I'm like, okay, like, now. I'm ready for it. And then he's triple blue. I saw I immediately like, because he's like, we could talk about like, the next time we have a chance to meet, like, at night or the next day. Yeah. And I'm like, so I've mainly I'm really giving some feedback back. Like Mo, here's some feedback for you. Don't tease me with the feedback, just for me to wait all day to find out why I can't live like this, like I want my feedback now is less. That's how feedback no longer event like I even as I was primed for feedback, because if if he's like, the type of you know, if he's like my boss, like the type that, you know, I would be intimidated by or scared by me, I would have spent all day like, I knew his feedback would be good. And usually that would be something constructive. I couldn't handle it. But, you know, typically someone comes tells you I have feedback where you're just, the rest of your day is just stuck, especially your boss, you're going to be like, what did I What did I do wrong, you'll be replaying every single thing you've done in life, figuring out what this feedback is going to be about. And you lose sleep that night. That means the next day, you know, so that's, that's, that's the feedback. I love seeing feedback, as a culture kind of play out. In funny ways. I'm like, I just text them about later. I was like, Mo a little bit feedback for you. Just you know, if you have you ever just give it to me or just don't you just tell me you have it and leave me hanging? I like it. I think it doesn't feel good. It's like oh, shoot. Okay, yeah, that's good. So he gave me the feedback. It was it was a silly example.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. Oh, that's hilarious. Cuz he doesn't like when I do that to him. Like, I could be like, Hey, don't don't don't let me forget to talk to you about this. That this thing. He's like, Well, let's talk about it now. I can't wait. Wait till they're like it's hard. Even feedback is just like a small little thing happened, but you need to know about it. He's like, what was it? He thought it now and I'm like I'm in, I'm in a meeting I can't focus on so you tell me, okay, I can't I can't go on, I can'y go on.

Mohammad Anwar
You're totally right. You're right. Like, I do get those feelings. It's like this fear of, like, missing out or waiting or something. I'm like, No, I need to hear it now. Like, I want it now.

Jeff Ma
So that's what you're doing to me. But anyways. So, you know, I think this is a this is one of our favorite stories that I definitely appreciate you, again, everyone digging deep and retelling it reliving it. Hopefully, you know, people draw parallels, I think we share these stories for ourselves to learn and retro and kind of relive and learn again. But hopefully we share it because we've, we also see it we see not exactly the story. But the parallels play out in different dynamics. And we've we've seen the the darker timeline of these play out, we've seen how these go sideways, these go wrong. mistakes that don't get resolved in this way and what that can mean to cultures. And just we've we've, we've we've played it out, we've seen it played out. And so these stories are just beneficial for us to retell and connect with. And hopefully as an audience, as listeners, you guys are, are enjoying that and getting getting a little bit out of it. And if you did, we'd love to hear from you. I love his business strategy. We're going to be posting stuff like this more often. And you can count on every Tuesday we'll be putting out something that's you know, long, we're really trying to give content around this lane to sharing more real stories connecting with you, we would love to hear back what you think about it. And if you have any similar stories, you can leave us that kind of feedback@softway.com/laabs if you'd like to engage. If you'd like what you heard, please do leave a review, subscribe, tell a friend all that good stuff. And so with that, I'd like to thank Mohammad Frank, Chris for joining me relive in our past once again. All those emotions coming up. I know it's it's fun and stressful sometimes, but it was good. I appreciate you guys taking the time. appreciate everyone joining me today.

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