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Episode 40:

LAABS: Remember Softway's Darkest Day?

It was 2015 and it was a day we would rather never remember. But in true LAABS form, we are going to talk about it publicly. Journey back with us to the day that could have been the end of our business and culture as we now it.

Speakers

Feel the love! We aren't experts - we're practitioners. With a passion that's a mix of equal parts strategy and love, we explore the human (and fun) side of work and business every week together.

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Jeff Ma
Host

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MohProfile

Mohammad Anwar
President

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ChrisProfile

Chris Pitre
Vice President

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Frank Danna
Director

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Transcript

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Jeff Ma
Hey folks, mark your calendars because on April 27, we'll be launching our new book, which is of course titled, love as a business strategy. Visit LoveAsABusinessStrategy.com for more info, and sign up for a chance to get a free copy. And if you're interested in bringing love as a business strategy to your organization, we are now offering free mini sessions of our globally resonant Seneca Leaders training experience. These mini sessions dive into three topics to help begin transforming leadership behaviors and influencing culture for the better. Space is limited. So visit softway.com/events to learn more, and RSVP now, enjoy the show.


Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm a director at Softway, a business to employee solutions company that creates products and offer services that help build resilience and high performance company cultures. I am joined today by our President, CEO Mohammad Anwar. Hey, Moh.

Mohammad Anwar
Hey guys.

Jeff Ma
Vice President Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris.

Chris Pitre
Hey.

Jeff Ma
And director Frank Danna. What's up, Frank?

Frank Danna
Hello.

Jeff Ma
Oh, that's weird vibe on that. Hello, but cool. So we're, we're gonna, we're gonna keep going. If you've been following the show, we're going to go down, we're gonna continue down this, this fun and weird path that we've been exploring. Going through some moments in, in in history, Softway history, if you will, talking about our own culture, our own mindsets, our own behaviors from from days past. And really having an honest conversation kind of telling the story, and having honest conversation around what was going on there. And what we saw, and what we've learned, those types of things have proven really beneficial to us to re explore and learn from. And so we thought we'd hit record on a podcast while we did it. And we welcome you to another rendition of that. So today, drumroll please. Just kidding, please don't do that. We are going to talk about what we call Softway's darkest day. It's coined in quotes. It was a moment in history that I won't spoil it too much. I want all of you to help tell the story. But it was definitely the day of infamy. Like if you say this to many people in organization, they'll know exactly the day you're talking about. Many of us live through it, as I wanted some some various perspectives on it today. And so I will kick us off. And you know what I'm going to let Frank start us off here to set us up what is what is Softway's darkest day?

Frank Danna
Well, software's darkest day, happened in late 2015. And it was a day where we had to layoff a significant amount of people within our company. And it was really the only time we've ever done a mass layoff. Up to that point, and since nothing else has ever happened, hence, the naming convention of Softway's darkest day. But layoffs, layoffs are are kind of a natural part of most business operations, like you're going to, at one point in time potentially experience a layoff or have come from layoffs, or walking into an organization that could potentially go through those those those aren't weird. But for us and the way our layoffs were handled, and the way that it was kind of structured, I think, that's really where our story begins, in regards to how these layoffs were followed through, and the kind of the thinking, the mindset, and the philosophy behind the way that we let a large group of our team go. And I think that's really where we should begin.

Jeff Ma
We're going to pop corn over to someone you know, you want to put your like, I

Frank Danna
kind of I kind of want to popcorn and Moh he's looking at me, he's looking down into the side. But I want to I want to kind of start there in terms of we were not in a good place financially as an organization, we were really not doing well. I'll set the stage again, Chris had only been a part of our organization for what length? Two weeks,

Chris Pitre
two weeks

Frank Danna
to that point. Alright, so Chris, Chris was new. And his his perspective is valid because he came in as a as a new team member, and then immediately experienced this moment from that perspective also. But no, I want I want you to kind of set the stage for us, for the audience as well, in terms of like, what led us to that point?

Mohammad Anwar
Sure. So just to kind of take it back a little bit, Softway had been in existence for almost 13 years, 12 years, actually, to that point. And that was over a decade of me trying to operate the company starting off as a 20 year old, with no prior experience in the corporate workplace, or running any kind of business for that matter of fact, and, you know, we had been quite successful. So you can imagine running 12 years and no layoffs. And then you're hitting this point in 2015, where I had senior advisors and senior leaders who had joined Softway to help guide me to help pave the way for Softway's future. Tell me come and tell me one day that, you know, we're not going to be able to survive at this rate financially, we're not going to be able to sustain the payroll and our expenses for how we had anticipated our market or our growth plans to go aren't going as well as they should. And so we're going to have to make some drastic steps and take some drastic decisions to ratify the situation. And they recommended to me that we have to make layoffs. And at that point in time, like I mentioned, and like how Jeff and I mentioned, we've never had to deal with this type of a situation. And for me, this is the first time that I was going into even trying to plan for a situation like this. I had heard of it. I had witnessed stories of other layoffs and organizations doing layoffs even that year. But I never thought about how it would look like at Softway. And or neither did I even have an idea how to execute these layoffs. And so I that was how I was brought up to even the point of making this decision. And I can tell you that this decision that was made, was made with a very few people. And it was very tight, like knit. And there was this burden of Let me check to never forget, there was a burden of me carrying that into meetings, carrying that walking into the office, knowing that the people that I was seeing, saying hi to that I was walking into meetings that they were not going to be there, you know, a week out. And it was the worst experience for me to look at them. You know, some of them have had years of relationships and are working relationships together. And it was it was this dirty feeling of you know, once that decision had been made, and some people's names had been picked. I I can't forget like leading up to those days it was really nightmarish. I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't. I couldn't It was really difficult. Like I wanted to avoid people I wanted to not look in look into people's eyes. I I was just, I was just afraid of like, how do I operate in normalcy when I know that come next week. these very same people that I'm working with will not be there because I was told you should never talk to anybody about this you should never bring this up you shouldn't give anybody a slight even a slightest hint that this is about to happen. And it must come as a surprise and there are legal ramifications if this is known before the day of and and like you're like all these like unspoken rules that I had to follow, but yet carry that burden with me going home every night and it was just a I it's hard for me to describe but it was a very, very uncomfortable feeling leading up to the darkest day. And I'll stop there and we can continue forward but that's it was a horrible it was a dirty feeling. I just felt really unclean. Like I'm such a bad person. Like all those feelings would go through my mind. But at the same time there is this rational side that was fighting and saying, well, this is what you got to do. This is business. Don't take it personal. This is just the way it is. But it was it was a battle. Internal mind battle that was going on, leading up to that day. That's how I recall it.

Jeff Ma
Chris, two weeks into your new job here was, I guess you can maybe we can move to the day itself over what's your reckon and What's your recollection of this event?

Chris Pitre
I remember I was sitting at my desk. And Mohammad like, walks past. He's like she's coming through right now. He's like, Come with me. Come on. It's like, what what's going on? He's like, let's go to the break room. And I was like, okay, so like, there's like this sort of sea of people that's like walking into the break room, and it's set up for, like this meeting and this announcement, right. And so I just grabbed a chair. And Mohammad comes in, and he's like, super nervous. And he just makes the announcement that, you know, right now, the folks that are not in this room are being let go. You know, you know, we are, you know, at this place in our company's history where we've had to make this hard choice, this was not easy. And you see sort of the wash over everybody's face like, this is happening, this is happening. And, you know, I wasn't aware of sort of how it was being handled away from us, I just knew that it was a tough conversation that Mohammad had to lead. And then people started asking questions like, are we next, you know, are there gonna be more layoffs? What's the company going to do about the financial situation? Is there a way out? Right, like, you know, the questions that you probably would think people may want to ask, but you know, typically don't ask me situations. And it was just a very sort of dampened climate. People were angry, some people were sad. Many people were doubting their own sort of, you know, trajectory inside of the organization. It was, it was all of that right in the air, and you could feel it, and it was super uncomfortable. And again, you know, I was one of, I think, three new hires, that had just come and I can't help but I feel like, I wonder if people are looking at me saying, like, you should have not been brought here. Right? Like, I mean, you you have that sort of feeling where it's like, like that i Is this because of me, right? Like is, did I sort of was I displacing someone else? And I think that that was, at least some of the sentiment that I felt from the three new folks was just like that. Because, you know, we weren't told that that was there was anything imminent happening, of course, in the hiring process. So it was, it was difficult from that perspective to like, sit around people, because, again, I didn't have deep relationships with those folks that had been like, oh, it had only been two weeks, you know, I knew their names for sure. But had I worked with them that I have, like, you know, working knowledge of how sort of they deliver and what value they brought individually, like that. I didn't have any of that context. And so, you know, it wasn't a situation where I personally felt comfortable to like, jump in, and like hug people or make people feel better about the situation. But it was just this sort of purgatory of like, I'm new, I don't quite fit in. And so I'm just gonna sit here and wait until somebody asked me how I'm feeling. I don't want to like intrude on what I felt like was a very much more personal moment for the people that had been here longer. And then having sort of conversations after the fact with, you know, Mohammad and a few others, you know, I, at the time, I understood, this decision that had to be made. But I think now looking back, there perhaps could have been more things that we could have done to save. save those folks.

Mohammad Anwar
And just to add context, to be honest, Chris, when we hired you, I did not even contemplate layoffs. That's how poorly our company was being managed. And so it wasn't like we were hiring people. When we knew we were doing layoffs. It really the decision and the execution came from the time we joined, to the time we did the layoffs and it was so quick and so sudden, because the way the urgency was brought to attention was like could be devastating financially if we don't make an execution sooner than later. And it was very, very, very, very like it. Here's the thing. It may have in just a week time from the decision to execution. But that felt like a lifetime. From my timeline. It was the worst experience that like the longest time that I could have ever had is that that was the longest week in my life. But at the same time, like it was a very short span from the decision to the execution, and so yeah, so I think it was just an accident that you were hired, and that happened, but it did. And it was not like we were, we were hiring knowingly that we were going to do layoffs. So as long as that that context if I never told you that, so

Jeff Ma
yeah, I was I was one of the people who was like, privy to what was about to happen, but I do remember how sudden it was. It was like, literally, like, when you talk about layoffs, and I was like, okay, we can start planning. I was like, No, this needs to happen. This. I'm like, when, like, this week, but yeah, it was

Frank Danna
like, next month,

Jeff Ma
yeah, by next Monday, they're like, Oh, okay. Like, that's how sudden it was, I do remember that.

Frank Danna
We had, I remember Jeff, we had to bring people's names to the conversation.

Jeff Ma
That's why we knew we were part of the library quick and very quick, urgent. There's this urgency created around it that I still don't necessarily understand, like, I get it, I guess, by the numbers and by the books, but it like, like Chris said, maybe there's a chance to save some jobs. But even if it wasn't, I felt like there's chance to take our time and weigh our options a little more. But we were definitely taking guidance from, you know, like what, who we considered experts. So, you know, these were like C suite, we had a C suite, the time that had seen it all done it all. And we kind of wanted to build a company that emulated like the businesses that they came from. And so we took their kind of word as as gospel, not not to put all the blame on them. But I'm saying that's kind of the mindset that we had coming into this, like, this is a necessary step. We're taking the advice, and I can give the perspective from the other room because Chris was in the Chris was in the the kind of break room area where people were safe.

Mohammad Anwar
I just want to elaborate

Jeff Ma
oh sorry,

Mohammad Anwar
I, I think you, you, you talked about how we were taking advice from senior leaders and so forth. But at the end of the day, I know that I held the keys to the decision making. And I want to, I want to make sure that I make the call out that the buck did stop with me. I I made the final decision at the end of the day to go forward with the layoffs. Despite the advice because at the moment in time, I won't I can't blame anybody, but everybody was just doing their job. They like in their minds, they were hired to advise me and they advised me but I pulled the trigger. So I I want to I want to make sure I call that up. I think it's important

Jeff Ma
No, I appreciate that.I wasn't I guess yeah, I kind of defended you there a little bit. But yeah, absolutely. Thank you. In the in the other room across the opposite end of the building was a meeting room a conference room that was relatively crowded, because Mohammad gave me the, do you remember the numbers of like, how many total people and how many layoffs there were in that.

Mohammad Anwar
So we did it. So our offices are located between India and the US. So we did it in multiple waves, but that was the first wave. And that was the US wave sort of in totality we laid off before the end of 2015 almost 100 positions between US and India combined. But that day in the office was almost 16 people out of probably 50 was their size 50 to 60 and we were laying off 16 people of the US office that we work together with in the US Houston office

Jeff Ma
right I remember there was like waves as well yeah, but that that particular day those people were in the this one conference crammed into one conference room and only other people there were a few like few managers and HR and so there were there were these packets these folders prepared that were labeled with their names and it had basically their kind of next steps like they you know health insurance information like kind of logistical paperwork and put things to sign and then they're basically said You know, it basically in a very, you know, kind of matter of fact way given the situation and then kind of sent the way it was arranged was it was sent for people is like the given the news, and then from here, the next steps is go to your desk, get all your stuff and you have to leave like because everybody else was held off. This is what this is part of, in my opinion, what makes it the darkest day was not just the fact that we had to do it, but how the day kind of played out. Right? People had to grab their stuff, they had to leave, they couldn't say bye, they couldn't say, and this is just Monday. So literally, they, they came into work, they got brought into this. And then everyone else is waiting in the in the break room on the side for everyone to be done. You know, practically, kind of almost in a way escorted out because they they were like kind of made sure they got all their stuff. And left almost like you know, from first to on paper, like for security reasons. They like things like that. But these were friends and co workers and, you know, people that wanted to talk about I wanted to deal with this in their own way. And they were really denied of that. That's what stands out a lot.

Frank Danna
Yeah, yeah, or even even say goodbye, right. So I remember standing there was a, there was a door in our break room that you could see across the building into the side of the the space where people were packing their, their things up. And I remember standing there just quickly, watching as people were shuffling out of the room, and they're walking to their desks, and I turned around and I couldn't I couldn't watch because I, I knew I would not be able to even say goodbye to them. And, you know, that was that was that was hard to have that separation. And then I remember when we we all sort of emerged from that break room. And there was this emptiness, this feeling like this, this deathly silence that these desks were just, they were just erased, like snapped out of existence. Like that's how it felt. And it was such a strange. It was such a strange environment. It was such a such a strange way to, you know, to, to let people go. And it was, in our opinion, as we say, an inhumane way to to let a team member or team members go.

Mohammad Anwar
I think it was quite dehumanizing.

Frank Danna
Agreed.

Mohammad Anwar
Like, you know, like, reflect on it. Yeah,definitely.

Frank Danna
And so and so that that was that's definitely for a multitude of reasons. But I think that the part that really struck me the most was walking back out into that space, and then nothing. And trying to kind of pick up the pieces from that point was it was a challenging thing for our entire organization.

Mohammad Anwar
I can tell you that there was so much attention to detail made to that day and that event. And I only say this because there was there was boxes prepared, there was security guards that ready standing by the elevator, there was like all these, this whole process seemed like it was so perfectly planned. For the for the layoffs. Looking back at it, I can only see that as because it's so common, that people knew exactly how to do it down to the detail. Like you keep boxes ready they say you have folders ready they say, this is how you do it. This is how you escort this is, this is the process, you just got to follow it. You just got to do it. And Mohammad, you're not allowed to be here. You have to go take the team there and you better not apologize, because you could apologizing for this could even lead you to like showing any type of remorse or apologetic nature can be perceived as weakness, or could open you up to legal exposure. Could I mean there were so many things that I had to, like prepare for, but it was so meticulously like structured. And I'm part of this like I was part of that planning. And it was just like, it was crazy. Like, I don't think we've even had events planned. So detailed. And this was like meticulously down to the detail down to the timing. And like planning for what could go wrong, and how you anticipate for it like it was so much discussion and thought put into it. But at the end of the day, the outcome of it all was just extremely dehumanizing. I can only empathize because I wasn't the one on the receiving end. But yeah, it was just it was definitely a darkest day.

Jeff Ma
Sure is interesting on the on the planning, you're talking about the like, you know, thinking about just how detailed and meticulous it was, and yet none of those plans or details kind of factored in the human element, or how none of the plans included, how to make people feel, you know, how to help people handle it, how to help people, you know, through this, how to do it in a way that made sense to people or showed care or passion. None of those were in those meticulous plans?

Mohammad Anwar
No, it was adviced against. It was. You know, I recently learned of something called moral injury. And I almost feel like that's kind of what maybe people were felt like, because it's like, it's the process, right? Like, that's the system, this is how it has to happen. But deep down, you know, it's wrong, you know, this is not the right way. Like, I mean, I'm not just talking about decision of layoffs, it's the way it was done, which was more like, really impactful. Besides the decision, and there's almost like, like, it's left a scar hit for me on. I never want to ever do that ever again, like period. And I wasn't even the one on the receiving end. I was the one who executed that whole decision. And deep down, I knew it was not right. I knew it was wrong. But I was like, Oh, this is how corporations are, this is how businesses are. And so there was this, this this fight of my moral values versus what business rational is. And like I can tell you, I'm scarred like I, I feel this even talking about this is like bringing up all kinds of emotions to me right now that I'm not, I am okay talking about it now. No, but I don't want to go back to it but it was a real, like, and that's just me, right? Like, I know, imagine and I'm, I'm a privileged power with power. I'm the CEO, I'm not even being impacted by this, like financially or, personally, like I'm in a position of power. And, and I felt that way that I can only imagine how others perceive that others felt with this. And even the people who were being let go, what would have gone in their minds about how they feel about Softway, or how they felt about me or Softway and just the way it was done. Like, it's just injustice, I don't know, maybe I'm thinking too much.

Chris Pitre
But I for me, again, I was at the room that was cool with the safe room. And I had only been here for two weeks. So my head, what was happening on the other side, or these heartfelt, you know, one on ones that were going on with the leaders and you know, those individual employees. So weeks later, when I found out that wasn't what happened that it was like this mass conference room style, like, tell everybody at the same time, like I was like that, I thought we I thought that the executives who were advising for that would have known better, because those are horror stories, that you hear about in movies that you hear about in companies that had toxic and really poisonous cultures and care about people like that, that heartless sort of way of letting go is something that I felt was a thing of the past, inside of corporate America, like we've grown from this, everybody has learned that that is not best practice and letting people go from an organization, especially when it's not performance related. This is purely a decision for the business, like, all the reason more why to let them go with dignity and humanity, and almost have a little bit of appreciation and a reminder that their value is not in what's happening today. And so when I that was in my head, like, you know, silly Chris perceiving that that was what was happening. So that's I was like, Okay, well, if we're getting the same talking to and there's this, you know, sort of, as much as Mohammad could muster up the emotion and sort of the humanity and the care. I'm thinking that's the equal and opposite for them - wasn't the case. And so, I remember my rage came not at the situation, but at the advice and the fact that like, how are people that are veterans to sort of, you know, the practices of HR and large organizations coming forward and implementing such horrible, horrible, deplorable you know, ways of departing someone from an organization especially when they didn't deserve it, it wasn't performance related there wasn't like a blow up. there wasn't anything other than people coming to their jobs, trying to do the best work possible, and unfortunately, there not being enough money to make all of the ends meet. And I just feel like if even if you don't say your your team is like your family or even if you don't, you know, sort of have, you know, a positive culture, but just the human nature of it all and putting yourself in someone else's shoes, or how would you like to be treated, asking yourself those questions, I just don't see how a experienced professional would actually come forward with that type of advice, knowing that they were in the seat to be influential on the leader who brought them in to receive that advice. And so, you know, maybe I'm holding on to unforgiveness, but I just, I couldn't understand anybody who was a part of that committee to advise why they would be, quote, unquote, around, at Softway for far too long. Because I was like, I don't want anything, or anyone who will put that forward as a plausible solution to a problem to stay on. Right. And I'll be very honest and clear about that, like, that is something that I just can't, I can't appreciate or support, or further in terms of how the business that I work for operates. Like, I refuse to make those types of companies successful. That's just my personal motto. It's like, Nope, I'm not giving you my talent. So you can do to people what you just did, like, no, I'm not doing it.

Jeff Ma
So we also coined this as our darkest day just as a, as a as kind of a landmark in our journey. It's kind of it kind of anchors, kind of the beginning of a lot of personal cultural growth for Softway. And it kind of serves, we continue talking about the story mainly to serve as a contrasting point as well to make to kind of measure how far we've come or if, if we've, if, if we've made a difference, I know that you know, we're not going to dive into this, but I know that we, we, you know, when the pandemic hit, we faced additional difficult, you know, decisions and things that we'd have to do from a business and financial side. And this darkest day story, like haunted us in a way that that definitely helped us, helped us make different, Mohammad, you are particularly making more difficult and very hard decisions around the pandemic. But I remember you, basically, as we've talked about all options, he basically refused to go through layoffs. Again, he said, that is not happening this time. We are not like the trauma came back. And it wasn't just because trauma is just like, we knew that we'd come so far, we knew that we wanted to be better, we knew that we wanted to be different this time around. And we, you know, I won't dive into details. But that just comes up to me as like, as we talk about kind of how the pain of the darkest day, I also kind of it brings me to kind of how that lesson sticks with us haunts us, but helps us continue growing and reminding us like what we what we want to fight for what we want to get better at.

Mohammad Anwar
Agreed.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, so you know, this, this story was definitely hard to bring up. I think it's kind of it's, it's kind of bringing us to this space. And I want to, like I guess, make sure we end on like that positive side of things. Because anytime we've had to bring this up, or you know, if we write about it, talk about it, and recollect it, it's just just a really, really awful, you know, rooted in, in guilt and shame and all these things. And I think there's also reality to it, that helps us kind of come out of it is that I'm personally very, very proud of the strides we've been able to make since and being able to weigh that against, you know, just showing how far we've come and what we take from that in terms of culture, in terms of what we hope we can make right for those going forward and make, you know, amends and and fix what we've, you know, what we've done is a huge driving force in our, in our onward journey and quest to to to build a better workplace for ourselves and for others. So I always take solace in that view. I know I I've made you all relive this story today. So I'm feeling a little guilty about that. But at the same time, I think that was really good to share that out and hopefully people listening heard, you know, a little bit of you no resonated a little bit with something that they've heard they've seen they've done i think there's is some universal connection to this story that many people can relate to and hopefully it serves as a bridge to understand kind of exactly what we're trying to fix for ourselves and for the for the world at large

Chris Pitre
yep i totally agree and i think the other sort of benefit that we've gotten out of that moment is the resolve and the commitment to you know bringing about love as a business strategy there's absolutely no one that can come to my face and try and get me to believe something different because i know what happens when you don't have it and i think that that is a reminder and sort of a reason to come and create this podcast week after week to come in and sort of help other businesses understand like no no you don't understand how dark your business can get if you don't have something like this and at least being on the path towards it is better than digressing from it because you don't know what long standing damage you could do not just to your company and your culture but to the humans who you mistreat and who leave now what that taste of what it feels like to be so dehumanized that you could even say goodbye to the people that you work with that is to me one of the most critical reasons why i stay on this mission and why i stay on this journey and i'm pretty sure i can speak for everybody here to say we don't want to see this happen to anybody ever again not just at Softway but even other businesses and so yeah but to me that's the positive comes out of that's a positive like you can if you don't like it you don't like it you know but i'm not gonna change my mind my mission or my focus because you don't understand or don't believe it or don't get it because i've seen and we've all seen the human impacts that happen we don't have it

Frank Danna
you know. For for folks that have joined the in the years since this they hear about this story and they're like is this a myth like is this a legend like it doesn't because they're coming into they're stepping into an organization that is radically transformed and when they hear the story and when they when we discuss it or when we write about or talk about it there aren't really able to connect to who we are at Softway because we've been taking these steps to transform our organization and our culture to where this is not something that could ever imagine happening here and i i'm driven by that i'm motivated by that that love is the catalyst and you know when we're able to see what could have been and we're able to learn and grow and adapt and change for the betterment of our teams and the people that will be impacted by that that's that's the whole point and so in talking about this it's challenging but it also it's also interesting to look back and see how far we've come and how far we still have to go and i'm definitely in that same in that same space Chris i'm motivated and deeply and profoundly driven to make sure that both our organization and as many organizations as we can influence don't ever have to experience something like that

Jeff Ma
thanks yeah absolutely so we hope we hope this was interesting to say the least for you to listen to we hope you got something out of it and hope you can take something back with you for your own reflection introspection but with that we'll sign off with a reminder that we are posting episodes every tuesday and if there's anything you'd like to cover or they'd like to hear about or elaborate on let us know give us that feedback at softway.com/laabs and if you enjoyed this content or if you have any other things to add please leave that that that review five star review would be great subscribe on apple and spotify all those good things share with a friend and with that i will sign off and see you all next week thank you Moh, thank you Chris and Frank. Talk, talk soon.

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